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Tuition fees increasing

For discussions related to education and educational institutions.
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tea_ismynewjesus
Posts: 60
Joined: March 21st, 2010, 4:16 pm

Tuition fees increasing

#1 Post by tea_ismynewjesus » November 3rd, 2010, 6:05 pm

This was brought up in Debating Enrichment at college today, which is why I thought to put it up here. Those of you in the UK (most of you, I think) will have heard about the large increase of university tuition fees. It would be raised to at least £6,000 and up to £9,000. This is the protesty website if you don't know about it: http://www.demo2010.org/ And a simple google-search will

I may go along to London, most people in my college are. Wondering if any of yous are going?

Oh and: discuss. :D

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#2 Post by Fia » November 3rd, 2010, 9:18 pm

Scots don't pay tuition fees in Scotland. Yet.

The funding of higher education does concern me greatly though, on many levels:

1. It feels exceedingly unfair that over the last few decades those who have benefited from fee-free higher education and a good grants system appear relatively qualmless about charging for it.

2. I am hugely concerned about the levels of debt undergraduates need to accumulate to gain a degree. I was a mature student, yet thanks to the grant and temping in the holidays had no debt after graduating. My younger contemporaries had half a chance of getting a job and a starter home. I am wholly unconvinced that sending the message that borrowing is good. Did we learn nothing from the free for all Thatcherite credit boom?

3. I have a sneaky suspicion that successive governments have encouraged graduate studies as a way of massaging the unemployment figures.

4. I am also unconvinced that expanding higher education to so many more people is such a positive thing. Many careers and jobs can be learnt on the job, with ongoing training. I'll hold my hand up to probably being elitist, but if you consider #3 many undergraduates time could be better spent learning on the job. We need to differentiate between academia and training.
4a. although I also acknowledge that for some - many? - the very act of academic study is a life enhancing activity. It certainly was for me...

5. I feel very strongly that education is a lifetime's work, not something that you have to jump through all the admission hoops at 17/18, grab a course that accepts you, get thousands of pounds into debt and then spend the rest of your working life paying for it. We need to find a way where folk can dip in and out of education. The OU is good for that, but still very expensive...

I'm sure there's 6, 7 and 8 but that's enough for now :D

Marian
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Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 2:25 pm

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#3 Post by Marian » November 4th, 2010, 12:11 am

Fia, I'm in agreement! The amount of debt that students have when they are finished uni over here is absolutely staggering.
Transformative fire...

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getreal
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#4 Post by getreal » November 4th, 2010, 12:30 am

Tut tut! Tea-ismynewjesus. Scotland has it's own education system (always has).

I completely agree with Fia's point about the value of so many people going to university. It is certainly no guarantee of a decent job. Many of my friends children have ended up in jobs which do not require a degree (such as admin assitant, and shop sales person) and can be learned on the job. The result is they are starting on the bottom rung at 21 years old along side colleagues, who started from school at 18 and are now higher up the ladder.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#5 Post by Nick » November 4th, 2010, 11:54 am

Hold onto your hats, but I pretty much agree with all Fia's points.

I am livid to hear politicians say that graduate loans have not put students off as post-grad students are increasing in number. This increase is purely because of the increase in the supply of graduates and a lack of graduate jobs, not a sign of equinimity on behalf of the graduates. :cross:

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Lifelinking
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#6 Post by Lifelinking » November 4th, 2010, 12:18 pm

I see real dangers for the University Funding system in Scotland too.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#7 Post by Alan H » November 5th, 2010, 12:20 pm

Heard some Government moron on the radio yesterday insisting that it wasn't a debt, but a tax liability. He was not for turning.

As far as I'm concerned, I pay taxes to allow students to go through Uni, to gain an education (sometimes just for the sake of it), to enable them to have careers that will sometimes (but not necessary always) be an investment for the future. All this while keeping them somewhere above the poverty line. Students should have no debts when they graduate.

Unfortunately, that ideal seems to be a long way from the current reality started by Labour and continued by the current lot.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#8 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » November 5th, 2010, 12:48 pm

Nick wrote:Hold onto your hats, but I pretty much agree with all Fia's points.
:happyclappy:

Nick
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#9 Post by Nick » November 5th, 2010, 12:55 pm

Do we also agree, therefore, that something is wrong with the degree system?

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Alan H
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#10 Post by Alan H » November 5th, 2010, 12:59 pm

Nick wrote:Do we also agree, therefore, that something is wrong with the degree system?
Do you mean the funding methods?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#11 Post by Nick » November 5th, 2010, 1:06 pm

No, Alan. I was referring to points 3 & 4 of Fia's post.

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#12 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » November 5th, 2010, 2:01 pm

Fia wrote:4. I am also unconvinced that expanding higher education to so many more people is such a positive thing. Many careers and jobs can be learnt on the job, with ongoing training. I'll hold my hand up to probably being elitist, but if you consider #3 many undergraduates time could be better spent learning on the job. We need to differentiate between academia and training.
4a. although I also acknowledge that for some - many? - the very act of academic study is a life enhancing activity. It certainly was for me...
Actually, I do think that expanding higher education to so many more people is, in general, a positive thing, and I would like to see it expanded to yet more. I think a more highly educated population is a good thing for both the economy and for people's well-being. But I don't think we should expect universities to take on a remedial role for students who have not reached a reasonable standard of literacy and numeracy. I think improving educational standards has to start as early as possible. I'd like to see universal, state-provided nursery education from the age of 3.

Having said that, I also think we should put a greater value on non-academic training and apprenticeships and skilled work of all kinds. And I think a lot of young people could benefit from training in what you might call "personal skills" [---][/---] although I'm not talking about neurolinguistic programming and similar nasties.
Fia wrote:5. I feel very strongly that education is a lifetime's work, not something that you have to jump through all the admission hoops at 17/18, grab a course that accepts you, get thousands of pounds into debt and then spend the rest of your working life paying for it. We need to find a way where folk can dip in and out of education. The OU is good for that, but still very expensive...
Absolutely agree. I don't think I was ready to go to university at 18, and I think my first undergraduate experience was something of a wasted opportunity. I didn't have the confidence to take a gap year and go travelling, but I think I would have benefited from some kind of training and some kind of work. Going back to university at the age of 42 and studying something that I actually enjoyed was a wonderful experience and something of a revelation, but I can't help wishing I'd done it ten or fifteen years earlier.

Emma

Gus
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Joined: November 19th, 2009, 5:42 pm

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#13 Post by Gus » November 11th, 2010, 9:06 pm

On the one hand, the riots were immature and unnecessary
Image
On the other hand, as someone who's going into university in the year the fees go up, there is no way that I can see a bunch of angry students smashing loads of Tory property and yelling "Tory scum" without thinking "FUCK YES!"

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getreal
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#14 Post by getreal » November 11th, 2010, 9:56 pm

I completed a degree at the local university when I was in my early 50s. I did it part time (mostly evenings) and mostly paid for it myself (ILA covered some modules. This was reintroduced in Scotland after the Capita fiasco. I don't know if England restarted the scheme).
Most Unis now have Departments of Lifelong Learning which offer all sorts of courses, not all heavily academic -I did a Greek module at Glasgow uni using an ILA. However, it was not a sucess :sad: Most universities offer a huge range of part time courses accessable by anyone.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#15 Post by Lifelinking » November 11th, 2010, 10:28 pm

On the other hand, as someone who's going into university in the year the fees go up, there is no way that I can see a bunch of angry students smashing loads of Tory property and yelling "Tory scum" without thinking "FUCK YES!"
I can't help thinking that if that fire extinguisher lobbed off the roof had hit somebody on the head, it would very likely have killed them.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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getreal
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#16 Post by getreal » November 11th, 2010, 10:33 pm

I saw a guy with a hammer, who used it to smash the glass. Who in their right mind says "Oh yeah! I musn't forget to take my hammer to the demo"?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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jaywhat
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#17 Post by jaywhat » November 12th, 2010, 6:37 am

Agree with Emma.
University education/degree is not only about future employment.
Higher education is per se a positive and beneficial thing - both for the person and for humanity generally.

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Alan H
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#18 Post by Alan H » November 12th, 2010, 7:17 pm

Gus wrote:On the one hand, the riots were immature and unnecessary
Image
On the other hand, as someone who's going into university in the year the fees go up, there is no way that I can see a bunch of angry students smashing loads of Tory property and yelling "Tory scum" without thinking "FUCK YES!"
Do you want to see the bit that has been cropped off that photo?

http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?i ... 0&srv=img6
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Tuition fees increasing

#19 Post by Nick » November 12th, 2010, 7:34 pm

Puts something of a different slant on things, doesn't it?

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Alan H
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Re: Tuition fees increasing

#20 Post by Alan H » November 12th, 2010, 7:39 pm

It's not exactly the same photo, but very, very close.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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