Jesus Camp, Channel 4 Tonight (Tuesday 6.5.08) 11.05 pm (UK)

[Maria Mac]

Anyone feeling masochistic?

Jesus Camp - 23:05

An Oscar-nominated documentary that explores the efforts of fundamentalist Christians in the United States to teach children how to become soldiers in 'God's Army'. The film follows devout youngsters Levi and Rachael as they participate in Pastor Becky Fischer's summer camp in Devil's Lake, North Dakota. Kids on Fire, as the camp is known, aims to guide children towards leadership roles that will help them to promote the religious and political ideas of evangelical Christianity within society.

Channel 4 : (60 mins)

[Alan C.]

Not for me I'm afraid
But hasn't the "Jesus camp" been closed down?

[Maria Mac]

It's very upsetting to watch. I've just read the wiki article in the break:

In November 2006, Fischer announced that she would be shutting down the camp indefinitely due to negative reaction to the film. According to Fischer's website, the owners of the property used for the camp shown in the film were concerned about vandalism to the premises following the film's release and thus will not allow it to be used for any future camps. Fischer has said that the camp will be indefinitely postponed until other suitable premises can be found, but it will be back.

[Nick]

Absolutely horrifying. I'm afraid I wanted to do serious injury to the adults involved. If the camp has been closed as a result of the film, at least some good has come of it. I wonder if such a camp would even be permitted in the UK? I also wonder what sort of adult would result if s/he changed his/her mind. I don't think it would be easy to laugh off such an experience.

[Alan H]

********************************************************************************
Preachers Pride Before The Fall (from The Herald )
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/las ... e_fall.php
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Preacher’s pride before the fall
DAVID BELCHER May 07 2008
Comment | Read Comments (1)

Jesus Camp
Channel 4, 11.05pm

IN a display of charity rare among TV programme-makers, Jesus Camp underplayed its biggest revelations by consigning them to the closing credits. Having concluded its look at the alarming indoctrination methods used on child believers by America's Christian fundamentalist right, this 2007 Oscar-nominated documentary posted two on-screen announcements.

The first pertained to superstar evangelical preacher Pastor Ted Haggard; the second concerned the current status of Jesus Camp's main subject, the Kids on Fire annual summer shindig in North Dakota, at which brutish methods were used to terrify impressionable children into the arms of the Lord. Pastor Ted had loomed large late on in Jesus Camp, addressing a congregation at his packed-out church in Colorado Springs, a booming Christian right burgh. Haggard's smooth, well-groomed and youthful face featured large, perfect teeth that seemed permanently bared. Their effect was closer to a vulpine snarl than a cheery grin.

In his sermon, Haggard, a married father of five, decried homosexuality while repeatedly exclaiming his confounding mantra - "It's written in the Bible!" - with a mixture of anger, disgust and glassy-eyed abstraction. Strangely, he also joked about issuing the programme-maker with a $1000 blackmail demand over the latter's adultery.
advertisement

This behaviour was baffling at the time it was uttered, although it did serve to shine an extra light on Jesus Camp's subsequent captioned message: "Since this film, Pastor Ted Haggard has been removed from the New Life Church. He also resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals amid allegations of methamphetamine use and paying a male prositute for sex."

Whoops. In addition to still- unrefuted charges of hypocrisy, the stench of money-grubbing secularity attended Pastor Ted's odd filmed exchange with 12-year-old Levi, a budding child-preacher.

Haggard wanted to know whether the lad's popularity was owing to his youthful novelty value or the content of his sermons. Understandably, the kid said he didn't know.

This prompted unpalatably slick marketing advice from Pastor Ted, offering an apprentice his insight as a well-paid professional religionist: "Use your cute kid thing till you're 30, and then you'll have content."

But what of Jesus Camp's second concluding statement? It announced that Pastor Becky Fischer's Kids on Fire project - Kids in Fear would be more apt - had suspended its operations following local discontent in the wake of Jesus Camp's initial cinema release in 2006. Pastor Becky was hard to dislike even though overly prone to martial sloganeering - "This means war!" - and telling weeping six-year-olds that they were phoneys and hypocrites.

For she was possessed by a fearful form of Christianity that saw irresistible sin lurking in every corner. Tragically, she was impelled to hate other religions - especially Islam, you'll be unsurprised to hear - by a faith which is predicated on love.

Fischer's camp also provided scenes of specious old-time holy rolling and speaking in tongues (no snake-handling, thankfully). Its one modern accessory was a cardboard cut-out of George W Bush (he's a bit of an idol to the US Christian right).

Worse still, her brand of faith propagated the materialist fallacy that praying gets you exactly what you want in this life. Dear God: give us all the strength to endure these folks' perversion of the Christian message (and if you could stop them any time soon, too, that would be dandy).

[Captured: 07 May 2008 13:16:07]

###################

[Parapraxis]

I saw a similar program called Baby Bible Bashers which was upsetting to watch, just to see the way these parents forced such beliefs on their children.

[para handy]

I wonder if such a camp would even be permitted in the UK?

I wondered the same thing. I find it hard to believe it would be permitted though I don't know. I also wondered about home schooling. If I understand correctly, a much smaller percentage of kids are home schooled in the UK and the main reason is because they are academically brilliant and don't get the stimulation their parents think they need from schools.And I believe they are tested regularly by education authority inspectors, aren't they? And some sort of action is taken against the parents if they don't make the grade?

These American fundies are obviously not getting a good science education - but what about maths, history, geography, languages, art, music etc?

[Alan C.]

Nick wrote:
I wonder if such a camp would even be permitted in the UK?

Not in the same league as "The Jesus camp" of course, but I believe "religion" plays a large part at scout camps.

[Alan H]

I believe "religion" plays a large part at scout camps.

Not that I can remember from my Patrol Leader days. I vaguely remember saying the Scout promise, but I don't remember any other mention of god or religion. Oh, other than going on Remembrance Day parades. In those days (the 60s) it would have been exclusively xtian, but now it would have to me multi-religious. Is it any different now?

[Alan C.]

Alan H
I vaguely remember saying the Scout promise, but I don't remember any other mention of god or religion.

On camps? Or just at the weekly meet up?
I believe at the camps they do "prayer" Daily, and say "grace" before all meals.
And bearing in mind, the scoutmaster has to be a churchgoer, there must surely be other references to "religion" during the week/fortnight?

[Alan H]

Not that I remember. Our Scoutmasters (Mr Taylor and Mr Anderson) were of the old school [---][/---] they taught us real Scouting skills (I can still tie a bowline with my eyes shut!) while other troops just seemed to play football all the time. We won most of the local competitions, of course! However, I doubt either of them was religious, but just having typed that, I do now have a vague recollection of one of them having something to do with the church. But, I still don't remember any prayers, graces or other nonsense. At that age, I was definitely atheist and I'm sure it would have grated.

[grammar king]

Scouts doesn't have much to do with the church anymore. Speaking as someone who's been in scouting for... 13 years (bloody hell), and acts as a scout leader when not at uni, it's really not a big deal at all.

As I'm sure you'll all know the Promise involves doing your duty to God and to the Queen, but I understand that's recently changed so that's not compulsory anymore. It's traditional for scouts to say grace before meals at camp but if you want to sit there and not do it, that's fine. Similarly at the end of every meeting we often said prayers but you didn't have to if you didn't want to, so long as you feigned respect. Our troop also did church parade about once every 6 weeks. That was compulsory to ensure a good turnout but you didn't have to pray or anything, and most troops don't even do that, ours was just attached to a church.

Our troop going camping was often just like a bunch of scousers going on tour so it didn't have much to do with praying. The only time we ever did really was if it was an organised camp like a Jamboree or something.

[Curtains]

I also wondered about home schooling. If I understand correctly, a much smaller percentage of kids are home schooled in the UK and the main reason is because they are academically brilliant and don't get the stimulation their parents think they need from schools.And I believe they are tested regularly by education authority inspectors, aren't they? And some sort of action is taken against the parents if they don't make the grade?

These American fundies are obviously not getting a good science education - but what about maths, history, geography, languages, art, music etc?

I read somewhere that more than one million children are Homeschooling in the United States and approximately 150,000 children are homeschooled in the United Kingdom.

In England & Wales, children of school age must be given a 'suitable education' but this doesn't mean they have to follow any school curriculum. There is a Charity called Education Otherwise, which was set up to support parents who want to home school in the UK (their page about the law in Scotland seems to be down).

Religion doesn't feature in the list of expressed reasons why parents want to home school. Here's an extract from one article:

Here are a few of them: children’s ill health; unhappiness, loss of a ‘childhood’, bullying, children turning into unrecognisable aliens! Poor academic achievement despite intelligence; lack of support for learners’ needs; lack of respect for children - their personalities and gifts; the increasing stress of testing and attainment targets; poor interaction with others in schools - both children and teachers alike; narrowing of the curriculum; intense pressure; unreasonable expectation put upon children and teenagers.

In general; miserable, stressed, switched off kids. And the deep inherent feeling in parents that surely there has to be another way.

This is from the page about legal matters.

An interpretation of some terminology used in the Education Act 1944 (replaced by the 1996 Act) was provided by an appeal case which was brought at Worcester Crown Court in 1981 (Harrison & Harrison v Stevenson). In this case, the judge defined a ‘suitable education’ as one which was such as:
1. to prepare the children for life in modern civilised society, and
2. to enable them to achieve their full potential.
The diversity of modern society and styles of education give parents considerable freedom of choice in enabling children to achieve their potential. In the case of R v Secretary of State for Education and Science, ex parte Talmud Torah Machzikei Hadass School Trust (1985) (Times, 12 April 1985) Mr Justice Woolf held that:
education is ‘suitable’ if it primarily equips a child for life within the community of which he is a member, rather than the way of life in the country as a whole, as long as it does not foreclose the child’s options in later years to adopt some other form of life if he wishes to do so.

According to this Christian website there is also a growing xtian homeschooling movement in the UK.

[Maria Mac]

Just to round this thread off, if anyone is sorry they missed Jesus Camp, there are loads of excerpts from it on youtube.

There's also a discussion on it hosted by Bill Maher here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309MCU8TonE



Autumn has started a thread on home schooling here.


There is a thread about scouts already here.

[Alan H]

What's the difference?

********************************************************************************
Non-religious summer camps develop niche -- -- Newsday.com
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ ... 1290.story
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ALBANY, N.Y. - When Joe Fox sends his daughters away to summer camp, he's confident they'll be surrounded by kids who share his family's beliefs and values.

Caitlin, 16, and Elizabeth, 10, go to Camp Quest, which in 1996 created a niche getaway for children who are agnostic, atheist, or just not sure what to believe yet.

Parents have plenty of summer camp options from Boy Scout and Girl Scouts to the YMCA to soccer, dance, music and drama camps. Many claim no religious affiliation while others are specifically Jewish, Catholic or fundamentalist Christian. The Camp Quest concept started in 1996 with 20 kids at a site in Ohio with the slogan "Beyond Belief."

Since then, demand has grown and weeklong camps have been added in Minnesota, Michigan, Ontario, California and Tennessee. In 2007 the camps accommodated 150 kids, generally ages 8-17. The projection for 2008 is more than 200 campers and new camps are also being considered in Vermont and the United Kingdom.

"They're good, moral kids without organized religion," Fox said of his daughters. "They can feel comfortable being who they are."

The family, from Furlong, Penn., has been sending their kids to the camps for years, even though it's more expensive and difficult to send them out of state instead of to a local camp.

Most Americans believe in some form of God _ 94 percent according to a 2007 survey from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. And 53 percent have an unfavorable view of atheists. Kids who attend the camp are not required to be atheists, or anything at all, said Amanda Metskas, president of Camp Quest Inc.

"We really try not to label the kids," she said. "When a kid is 8 or 10, asking them to say 'I'm an atheist,' or 'I'm a Catholic' _ at 8 or 10 we don't think that kids are able to make a decision about their world view."

Camp Quest is a not-for-profit backed by the Albany, N.Y.-based Institute for Humanist studies, a think tank supporting the nonreligious Humanist philosophy, which emphasizes science, evolution, compassion and critical thinking.

At mealtime, kids learn about what the camp calls "freethinkers" throughout history _ defining them as people who questioned or rejected religion. Examples can include people who believed in some version of a higher power, but held ideas conflicting with the social norm. Some freethinkers include: cycling champion Lance Armstrong, science fiction writer Isaac Asimov, women's rights pioneer Susan B. Anthony, abolitionist Frederick Douglass and author Alice Walker, who wrote "The Color Purple."

Campers are exposed to science and learn about evolution. They also participate in typical outdoor camp activities, including swimming, horseback riding and roasting marshmallows.

The counselors will sometimes discuss world religions and philosophies. They say the focus is not on what is "wrong" about other beliefs, but they do sometimes use examples from religions when talking about errors in critical thinking.

In one exercise, counselors tell the kids about different invisible creatures that live in the camp and then challenge the campers to prove that they don't exist. In some cases, it's a pair of unicorns, in other cases, a dragon. In each instance, the campers are told they can't see, touch or taste the creatures.

The point is that a belief isn't automatically valid just because it can't be proven wrong. The exercise is supposed to help kids who don't believe in God prepare for questions from their peers who ask them to prove a higher power doesn't exist.

If campers manage to prove the creatures don't exist, the prize is a $100 bill from before 1954 _ when the government put "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency.

Camper Caitlin Fox, 16, said the camp has helped her build confidence.

"Before I attended I used to feel really embarrassed," she said. "I was afraid my friends would reject me if I said I didn't believe in some higher power."

Critics say the camps appear to espouse a particular point of view.

"Obviously that's a metaphor for God," Dr. Erika Chopich, Ph.D., said of the invisible creatures exercise. Chopich is a psychotherapist, reverend and founder of the nonprofit Hope America Ministries Foundation. "It's clearly meant to teach that God cannot possibly exist ... There's obviously some teaching going on, there's some philosophy there. It's not completely neutral."

Lev Pinskiy, of Brooklyn, sends his son, Eugene, 14, and daughter, Margaret, 9, to Camp Quest because he wants them to have a sense of belonging.

Pinskiy considers himself a Humanist and was raised without organized religion, but he came from a Jewish background, while his wife was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church. In separate incidents, Pinskiy felt his children were rejected by both religious communities because neither considered the children to be their own.

"I don't want my children to feel isolated and like second class citizens, because they're not," Pinskiy said. "They have _ as I do _ a strong system of morals and rules for behavior."

Pinskiy said Camp Quest has helped his family _ especially his children _ become more confident about their own disbelief.

"Nobody wants to live alone in a bubble," Pinskiy said. "So it's extremely nice to find similarly minded people with the same world view."

___

On the Net: http://www.camp-quest.org/


[Captured: 19 May 2008 07:41:05]

###################

[Alan H]

Some more information on Camp Quest:

********************************************************************************
IHS :: HNN :: Freethought Summer Camp Coming To Britain
http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=349&article=0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Freethought Summer Camp Coming To Britain

By RUTH N. GELLER
HumanistNetworkNews.org
May 21, 2008

Camp Quest is crossing the Atlantic to Great Britain next summer.

The residential summer camp for the children of freethinkers, humanists, skeptics and humanists, is planning on opening a site in the U.K. in July of 2009.

Samantha Stein traveled from her English home to the U.S. at her own expense in 2007 in order to volunteer as a counselor at Camp Quest, Michigan. She so impressed Camp Quest founder Edwin Kagin, and Len Zanger, the Michigan camp director, that they asked her to take on the task of starting Camp Quest, U.K.

"Once I had attended the Michigan camp, I knew I wanted to be more involved with the humanist/freethought movement, and do what I can do to, for want of a better phrase, make the world a better place," said Stein, in an e-mail interview with the Humanist Network News.

On May 10, the 22-year-old published a first person account of her experiences at Camp Quest, Michigan in a British newspaper.

Stein was raised an atheist, although she attended a Christian secondary school. Being forced to attend chapel services daily raised her ire.

While at university, her parents gave her a copy of The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. From that she learned about Camp Quest.

Camp Quest was created in 1996 by the Free Inquiry Group, Inc. (FIG) of Cincinnati, Ohio.

The first camp site was in northern Kentucky. Twenty children camped out in a site leased from the Bullittsburg Baptist Church Camp. Today, Camp Quest, Inc. has six sites across North America, including one in Ontario, Canada.

The idea for the alternative summer camp originated with Edwin Kagin in 1995. Kagin had been an Eagle Scout, and was upset about the anti-freethought and pro-theist policies of the Boy Scouts of America.

In Boy Scouts, a person must agree to sign a 'Declaration of Religious Belief,' in which he must agree that "only a person who acknowledges his duty to God can be the best kind of citizen".

Kagin and his wife Helen served as camp directors for the first 10 years of the original Camp Quest, retiring at the end of the 2005 camp session.

In the U.K., the Scouting Association has a similar stance. In a 2005 article in Humanist Network News, the organization's director of public relations said, in an e-mail to HNN that, "We would not permit an atheist or republican to join" (the Scouting Association).

(In Britain, a "republican" is someone who rejects the monarchy in favor of a republic.)

"It's really exciting to see Camp Quest expand," said Amanda Metskas, the president of Camp Quest, Inc. "Clearly, a lot of humanists in the U.K. are excited about it there."

Metskas works out of the Institute for Humanist Studies in Albany, N.Y. The Institute has provided grants that have helped all six Camp Quest sites get off the ground.

Stein thinks that, while in general, it is easier to be an atheist/humanist in Britain, on the down side, religion is more built into the British system.

"We are literally a Christian nation, and one in three state sponsored schools is a "faith" school-- Church of England or Catholic-- with a handful of Islamic, Jewish and Hindu schools," said Stein.

"It is perhaps "frowned upon" to be overt about atheism--people think that it is somehow offensive, " Stein stated.

According to Stein, camp director of Camp Quest-U.K., several sites are being considered. Stein said that she particularly likes a spot in Bruton, Somerset, in the southwest of England.

Applications for start up money were made to the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science and Reason (RDFSR) and the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU); but, Stein is hoping that a large portion of the funds can be raised through individual donations.

"We currently have a mailing list of over 70 people who either want to support us or who would like to send their children to us—and that's from a bare minimum of publicity! " wrote Stein.

Stein said that there has been interest in counselor positions in individuals from age 19 to 79. She feels the diversity and activities the camp will offer will make it a unique experience for children.

She is sure that once there is a site and camp dates are set, there will be more interest than availability.

"My enthusiasm for the kids is what's kept me going so far, and I really feel very protective over it, like it's my baby," said Stein.

[Captured: 21 May 2008 22:48:04]

###################

[Maria Mac]

Stein was raised an atheist, although she attended a Christian secondary school. Being forced to attend chapel services daily raised her ire.

One has to wonder why parents raising their kid as atheist would have sent them to a xtian school. Could it reallly have been that there was no choice?

[lewist]

There has been some discussion in this thread about the Scout movement and its offshoots. My memory of Scouts in the fifties and sixties is that it was not only religious but also political. Having had a left wing and fairly republican upbringing I was always uneasy about the 'queen' bit. My father was a time served Cooperative grocer, and I find it odd that it was only in my late teens that I heard of the Woodcraft Folk, the youth groups of the Cooperative Movement. There are many Scout and Guide troops doing their duty to god and Mrs Queen but how about these principles from the website of the Woodcraft Folk?

• We are co-operative. We encourage children and young people to work together to share their skills and enthusiasm.
• We believe in equal opportunities and access for all members. This means being able to discuss and challenge discrimination.
• We are open to people of any religion or none.
• We empower young people to make decisions themselves and to take an active part in the world about them.
• We are dedicated to the building of a more peaceful future.
• We promote an understanding of the need to protect our environment and the use of the world's resources.
• We run exchanges with similar organisations throughout the world. Our international links help us to span the world with friendship.

My children went to Scouts or Guides as there was not a Woodcraft Group handy and I think there might have been some discussion in the family if there had been, as my late wife was a keen guide in her youth. However, it is good to know some children have an alternative to the sexist, faith based political organisation that the principles of Scouting set it out to be.

Does anyone have direct experience of this lovely sounding organisation?

[Nick]

Hmmm. My memories of scouting are very positive overall. Admittedly, I'm not a republican (though that's a discussion for elsewhere,) and I do remember being pissed off when religion reared it's head (church parade, for example). Having said that, when I helped out at a cub camp as a young adult, the chance of anyone being religious with the young lads was vanishingly small. The only reference I remember was grace, which was a follows: "Bless this bunch as they eat their lunch". Even that brought forth groans from the kids.

"Woodcraft Folk", as a name for a youth movement, sounds spectacularly naff to me. Sounds like fairies at the bottom of the garden. They should change it.

Scouting introduced me to camping, canoeing and hiking, as well as a variety of games, indoor hockey and British Bull Dogs for example, half of which would probably be banned these days.

I left at 14 when I joined the naval section of the CCF at school, which met on the same evening.

I think sexism is a somewhat unfair charge to level as scouts and guides too. They do have joint troops for older children, and I think there is a place for the individual sexes to follow activities which may not appeal to the opposite sex.

[Alan C.]

Nick
British Bull Dogs for example, half of which would probably be banned these days.

Ahh the memories Rugby without a ball or any rules But you're right, it probably wouldn't be allowed now