INFORMATION

This website uses cookies to store information on your computer. Some of these cookies are essential to make our site work and others help us to improve by giving us some insight into how the site is being used. For further information, see our Privacy Policy. Continuing to use this website is acceptance of these cookies.

SYRIA

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#261 Post by Alan H » October 21st, 2016, 12:23 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Nick wrote:Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?
France to create 12,000 housing placements for Calais migrants ousted from the 'jungle'
And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?
For those illegally in France who do not wish to claim asylum, the state will strengthen “voluntary return and deportation measures”, the document reportedly states. Individuals whose asylum request concerns another EU country could be kept under “house arrest” while their transfer is arranged.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#262 Post by Alan H » October 21st, 2016, 12:41 pm

'Socialist' France to take 24,000 migrants under EU scheme
France has promised to accept 24,000 asylum-seekers over two years as part of a European plan to cope with an influx of migrants fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East and Africa.
Image

'Tory' UK has an opt-out from EU asylum policy.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6520
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: SYRIA

#263 Post by animist » October 22nd, 2016, 12:53 pm

Nick wrote:Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?

And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?
I have to say this is a cheap and unworthy shot

User avatar
jaywhat
Posts: 15807
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: SYRIA

#264 Post by jaywhat » November 27th, 2016, 9:20 am

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173574

You might like to sign this petition. Every little helps.

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#265 Post by Alan H » November 27th, 2016, 9:40 am

Done.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#266 Post by Nick » November 28th, 2016, 6:44 pm

jaywhat wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173574

You might like to sign this petition. Every little helps.
I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, but with Russia having air-supremacy, don't you think this proposal is somewhat naive?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#267 Post by Nick » November 28th, 2016, 6:47 pm

animist wrote:
Nick wrote:Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?

And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?
I have to say this is a cheap and unworthy shot
Just noticed this... Care to explain?

User avatar
jaywhat
Posts: 15807
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: SYRIA

#268 Post by jaywhat » November 29th, 2016, 6:46 am

Nick wrote:
jaywhat wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173574

You might like to sign this petition. Every little helps.
I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, but with Russia having air-supremacy, don't you think this proposal is somewhat naive?
So we do nothing then ?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#269 Post by Nick » November 29th, 2016, 1:27 pm

jaywhat wrote:
Nick wrote:
jaywhat wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173574

You might like to sign this petition. Every little helps.
I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, but with Russia having air-supremacy, don't you think this proposal is somewhat naive?
So we do nothing then ?
No, do something more effective. (Not sure what that would be, though..)

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6520
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: SYRIA

#270 Post by animist » November 29th, 2016, 2:28 pm

Nick wrote:
animist wrote:
Nick wrote:Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?

And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?
I have to say this is a cheap and unworthy shot
Just noticed this... Care to explain?
it was a bit OTT, but you seemed to be making some sort of political capital over this dreadful issue. Even assuming that it's accurate to call France "socialist" (which it scarcely is even if the government goes by that name), there is no reason that a leftwing government should be more obliged to help refugees than a liberal capitalist one

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6520
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: SYRIA

#271 Post by animist » November 29th, 2016, 2:30 pm

Nick wrote:
jaywhat wrote:
Nick wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, but with Russia having air-supremacy, don't you think this proposal is somewhat naive?
So we do nothing then ?
No, do something more effective. (Not sure what that would be, though..)
stop supporting the rebels, whose cause is hopeless, and stop saying that Assad has no part in postwar Syria. That would be a start

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#272 Post by Nick » November 29th, 2016, 7:36 pm

animist wrote:
Nick wrote:
animist wrote:I have to say this is a cheap and unworthy shot
Just noticed this... Care to explain?
it was a bit OTT, but you seemed to be making some sort of political capital over this dreadful issue.
Oh. Not really.
Even assuming that it's accurate to call France "socialist" (which it scarcely is even if the government goes by that name), there is no reason that a leftwing government should be more obliged to help refugees than a liberal capitalist one
Well, yes, I'm not France's greatest fan, and yes, France is not wholly socialist, even, as you say, the President puts himself forward as socialist, but it does seem to belie the idea of socialism, by ignoring the poor and wretched. Maybe governments of any shade are equally morally obliged to help refugees, but not to do so if you set out to claim to care for the people is more hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

This seems to be exposed by stories in the press of orphans wandering around Calais, seemingly ignored by the French authorities, to the extent that British charities were operating in France to cover that deficiency. Of course, it may be an unbalanced picture, I don't know, but I would think it rather strange if groups of French charities started, say, setting up soup kitchens in London. ISTM that the French authorities were much more interested in allowing refugees to pass through, than in following the Dublin convention. I really don't see the UK government allowing "jungles" to exist in Britain for months on end.

So yes, the Syrian crisis is desperate, but that doesn't mean that France gets a free pass to ignore them to avoid "making political capital" (which I don't think I have anyway...)

OTT? No worries. :wink:

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#273 Post by Alan H » November 29th, 2016, 8:52 pm

Nick wrote:
animist wrote:
Nick wrote:
Just noticed this... Care to explain?
it was a bit OTT, but you seemed to be making some sort of political capital over this dreadful issue.
Oh. Not really.
Even assuming that it's accurate to call France "socialist" (which it scarcely is even if the government goes by that name), there is no reason that a leftwing government should be more obliged to help refugees than a liberal capitalist one
Well, yes, I'm not France's greatest fan, and yes, France is not wholly socialist, even, as you say, the President puts himself forward as socialist, but it does seem to belie the idea of socialism, by ignoring the poor and wretched. Maybe governments of any shade are equally morally obliged to help refugees, but not to do so if you set out to claim to care for the people is more hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

This seems to be exposed by stories in the press of orphans wandering around Calais, seemingly ignored by the French authorities, to the extent that British charities were operating in France to cover that deficiency. Of course, it may be an unbalanced picture, I don't know, but I would think it rather strange if groups of French charities started, say, setting up soup kitchens in London. ISTM that the French authorities were much more interested in allowing refugees to pass through, than in following the Dublin convention. I really don't see the UK government allowing "jungles" to exist in Britain for months on end.

So yes, the Syrian crisis is desperate, but that doesn't mean that France gets a free pass to ignore them to avoid "making political capital" (which I don't think I have anyway...)

OTT? No worries. :wink:
We've been here before, of course: France to create 12,000 housing placements for Calais migrants ousted from the 'jungle'
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#274 Post by Nick » November 29th, 2016, 10:26 pm

After how long...?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#275 Post by Alan H » November 29th, 2016, 10:54 pm

Nick wrote:After how long...?
How many are the Tory Government taking? France seems to have regularly taken in about double the number of migrants per head of population than the UK.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: SYRIA

#276 Post by Nick » November 29th, 2016, 11:06 pm

hatabootery, Alan, as you should know! :wink:

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#277 Post by Alan H » November 29th, 2016, 11:32 pm

Nick wrote:hatabootery, Alan, as you should know! :wink:
No, Nick. No it's not.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
jaywhat
Posts: 15807
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: SYRIA

#278 Post by jaywhat » November 30th, 2016, 10:56 am

instead of all the silly words and light hearted banter some people put in when there is a deadly important subject in front of them for them to do something positive and useful would be good.
Sorry! I do the same myself . ................

User avatar
Ninny
Posts: 545
Joined: December 13th, 2007, 12:03 pm

Re: SYRIA

#279 Post by Ninny » December 1st, 2016, 8:57 am

No need to apologize for going straight to the point. Scoring political points is not appropriate when people are being massacred.

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6520
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: SYRIA

#280 Post by animist » December 1st, 2016, 11:15 am

Ninny wrote:No need to apologize for going straight to the point. Scoring political points is not appropriate when people are being massacred.
agreed. What does anyone think about what I said? That, dreadful as this may sound, the conflict will only come to an end when the Assad regime and its Russian allies win, and that therefore the noises made by Western politicians (of all shades as far as I can see) are simply prolonging the bloodshed

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6520
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: SYRIA

#281 Post by animist » December 1st, 2016, 11:24 am

Nick wrote:
animist wrote:Even assuming that it's accurate to call France "socialist" (which it scarcely is even if the government goes by that name), there is no reason that a leftwing government should be more obliged to help refugees than a liberal capitalist one
Well, yes, I'm not France's greatest fan, and yes, France is not wholly socialist, even, as you say, the President puts himself forward as socialist, but it does seem to belie the idea of socialism, by ignoring the poor and wretched. Maybe governments of any shade are equally morally obliged to help refugees, but not to do so if you set out to claim to care for the people is more hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
not really, and this leads onto a bigger question of what socialism (or any form of political egalitarianism) is and entails. Since "the people" you mention are in fact the inhabitants of a particular nation state, there is no necessary connexion between leftwing national political structures and a concern for the welfare of foreigners, and although leftwingers probably do tend to be more internationalistic and altruistic than rightwingers, it ain't necessarily so (you personally for instance are in your own way extremely idealistic and altruistic, you just differ from many of us here on the means rather than the ends).
Nick wrote:[
This seems to be exposed by stories in the press of orphans wandering around Calais, seemingly ignored by the French authorities, to the extent that British charities were operating in France to cover that deficiency. Of course, it may be an unbalanced picture, I don't know, but I would think it rather strange if groups of French charities started, say, setting up soup kitchens in London. ISTM that the French authorities were much more interested in allowing refugees to pass through, than in following the Dublin convention. I really don't see the UK government allowing "jungles" to exist in Britain for months on end.
I don't see how this analogy works. The Calais jungle exists because refugees want to end up in Britain; there is no reverse flow and it is impossible to surmise what might happen if there were

Post Reply