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SYRIA

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#241 Post by Dave B » October 10th, 2015, 3:43 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

I think, thundril, that the "East" also has a habit of supporting despots for its own cynical purposes. Admittedly, in the past at least, the drive was ideological and militarily strategic rather than capitalist, but it was no sweeter.

Now, though not overtly capitalist, China at least will support any regime they will sign over resources for some infrastructure of rubious worth or durability.

We too often tend to use the "capitalist" bogeyman to blinker us from the other global baddies IMHO. It has been suggested that Putin's strategies are also based on his own investments and those of the oligarchs who back him. Russian and Chinese capaitalists are still capitalists!

I would be interested hearing which regimes you admire, thundril.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

thundril
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Re: SYRIA

#242 Post by thundril » October 10th, 2015, 4:43 pm

I totally agree with you that the Russian, the Chinese, and every other Empire, has always played the same dirty games with other people's lives, Dave. The Russian Empire under Putin is not much different from the Russian Empire under Stalin, or the Russian Empire under the Tsars. A dictatorship run by oligarchs, gangsters and their trained thugs, ruling over a population with no cultural history of democracy or political free expression, administered by a vast and labyrinthine bureaucracy, that regards 'the rest of the world' as a kind of bloody chessboard, on which it seeks to outplay its global rivals..
I use 'capitalism' as the villain in the piece today because, currently, it is capitalism that is driving the game, not only in the West, but also in Russia and to a large extent even in China.
Stalin's central policy was called 'Socialism in a single country' at home, and 'Peaceful roads to socialism' abroad. It was quite cynical. He was aware that the working-class movements in Western Eurpope, and the middle class social/cultural structures in those countries, would not tolerate the dictatorship that the people of Russia had no means to overthrow. At no time did the Soviet Union make any attempt to 'invade' Western Europe, except in the 1940s. After the Nazis invaded Russia, and then started to fall back, they left behind them populations, disorganised and disrupted by war, and already demoralised by years under a military dictatorship. These countries must have looked very attractive to Stalin. His armies were already moving in that direction, and it was easier to drive them on then let them come home, armed, organised and not pleased with him. They could set up little satellite dictatorships, without the risk of being rapidly overthrown.
The 'Capitalist threat' was useful to Stalin as a way of keeping the Russian people in subjugation. The 'Communist threat' was useful to America, as a way of keeping their population committed to Capitalism. In fact neither Stalinism nor Capitalism ever posed a real threat to each other, except occasionally the threat of mutual nuclear obliteration.
It is time we stopped this foolish habit of 'loyalty' to this or that system, regime, or set of political rulers. War serves their interests, not ours.

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#243 Post by Dave B » October 10th, 2015, 6:43 pm

The main sentiment that I was responind to was uour use of "The West" as below, when it is not only "The West/ that is guilty of these transgresions against humanity. Perhaps we need a new, more inclusinve, term - like "The Evil Bastards" without any geographical tag?
thundril wrote:The West operates a completely unprincipled strategy of excusing and reviling by turns whatever vicious dictatorship happens to be 'ruling' an area of interest to international capitalism. At present it dosn't suit the West's global interest to disrupt the Saudi government; if it did, we'd be inundated with outraged statements in Parliament and terrible stories in the press about the atrocities routinely committed by the Saud family. The slavery. The amputations. The executions literally every other day on average. All perfectly true stories, sadly. But our government says as little as possible about these at the moment. Therefore the rightwing press says very little about them.


I wouldcre-ask ifvtherecare any regimes or national systems that meet with your approval, but add the qualifier, "deoending on how they treat both their own nationals and other countries." No looking for chinks in your zrgument here, thundril, just wondering if such exist for you.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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thundril
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Re: SYRIA

#244 Post by thundril » October 10th, 2015, 9:56 pm

Dave B wrote:
I wouldcre-ask ifvtherecare any regimes or national systems that meet with your approval, but add the qualifier, "deoending on how they treat both their own nationals and other countries." No looking for chinks in your zrgument here, thundril, just wondering if such exist for you.
Nope!

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#245 Post by Dave B » October 10th, 2015, 10:23 pm

thundril wrote:
Dave B wrote:
I wouldcre-ask ifvtherecare any regimes or national systems that meet with your approval, but add the qualifier, "deoending on how they treat both their own nationals and other countries." No looking for chinks in your zrgument here, thundril, just wondering if such exist for you.
Nope!
Thought so, shitty world ennit?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: SYRIA

#246 Post by thundril » October 11th, 2015, 4:16 pm

It strikes me as a very beautiful world, with some very beautiful people in it. Plus a small group of small-minded selfish psychopathic bastards who usually end up with all the power.

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Re: SYRIA

#247 Post by thundril » October 11th, 2015, 5:29 pm

Gravely unwise. Wars are astonishingly easy to start, horribly difficult to stop.

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#248 Post by animist » October 21st, 2015, 7:23 pm

just watching a typically stupid American on Channel 4 News. Apparently, according to him, Isis and Assad both need to be "exterminated" (or was it "terminated"?) but the "Coalition" has unfortunately so far failed to achieve these dual goals. As the goals can never simultaneously be achieved, and given that even one of them is unlikely to be achieved, I think that any rational person should opt for allowing the survival one or the other, and I (surprise) vote for Assad

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#249 Post by animist » October 24th, 2015, 12:53 pm

animist wrote:just watching a typically stupid American on Channel 4 News. Apparently, according to him, Isis and Assad both need to be "exterminated" (or was it "terminated"?) but the "Coalition" has unfortunately so far failed to achieve these dual goals. As the goals can never simultaneously be achieved, and given that even one of them is unlikely to be achieved, I think that any rational person should opt for allowing the survival one or the other, and I (surprise) vote for Assad

I did not mean to suggest that Americans are any more stupid than we are! But his naivete surpassed even the daft announcements over Syria and Iraq by our own lot, and, what's a lot more, the US can actually influence what happens in the world

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#250 Post by Dave B » October 24th, 2015, 1:36 pm

animist wrote:
animist wrote:just watching a typically stupid American on Channel 4 News. Apparently, according to him, Isis and Assad both need to be "exterminated" (or was it "terminated"?) but the "Coalition" has unfortunately so far failed to achieve these dual goals. As the goals can never simultaneously be achieved, and given that even one of them is unlikely to be achieved, I think that any rational person should opt for allowing the survival one or the other, and I (surprise) vote for Assad

I did not mean to suggest that Americans are any more stupid than we are! But his naivete surpassed even the daft announcements over Syria and Iraq by our own lot, and, what's a lot more, the US can actually influence what happens in the world
Sounds like the, far too frequent, American habit of judging dituations according to their own value set. I reckon this was the reason that both Iraq and Afghanistan were failures and why their policies in Syria will pr8bably fail.

Russia has a sort of pseudo-legitimacy to bomb any targets Assad detines as "terrorist" whilst the West cannot indulge in active regime chsnge but have to pick away at a target thst uses civilians as a shield. Another case where the west are largely disabled by accepted Rules of Engagement and Russia/Syria/Iran et al give them the finger.

Moral victories are good but...
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#251 Post by Dave B » October 24th, 2015, 4:05 pm

Just heard on R4 that the Russians had offered to support the FSA, but the offer was turned down.

Now wondering exactly what is happening, but happy if the Russians do only attack IS targets and not the "legitimate rebels". Or targets hiding in predominstely civilian areas.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: SYRIA

#252 Post by Dave B » December 20th, 2015, 9:55 am

It seems that, "...a recent report suggests...", that up to 60% of the groups fighting Assad can be considered as being Islamist. What that means in terms of the numbers of fighters they did not say on WS.

The suggestion is that even if Daesh are obliterated there will be others groups ready to take their place, using Daesh's destruction by non-Muslims, an insult against Islam, as a powerful recruiting cry.

As I suggested elsewhere it is almost impossible to defeat an idea. In N. Ireland they "defeated" the IRA, so up popped the Provional IRA. Make peace with them - the dissenters form the Real IRA. The concept of "Republicanism" is not dead even now.

So al Q dissidents formed IS/Daesh which, similar to al Q, has "affiliated" groups all over the area willing to take up the lead it seems. Unfortunately this problem has a potentially global dimension, there were reports of more Islamist action in the Far East last week.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#253 Post by Alan H » July 27th, 2016, 2:12 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#254 Post by Alan H » September 6th, 2016, 8:08 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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jaywhat
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Re: SYRIA

#255 Post by jaywhat » October 6th, 2016, 6:44 am

Support the White Helmets.
Message from
"Anna Nolan - The Syria Campaign" <info@thesyriacampaign.org>

[Aleppo is being hit by hundreds of airstrikes a day. Water has been cut off, no food can enter the city and the remaining hospitals are being destroyed one by one. This is one of the darkest moments of one of the bloodiest conflicts of our era. Yet despite the suffering there is a ray of hope -- the rescue workers of the White Helmets.
The White Helmets have had three out of four of their centres in Aleppo bombed in the past days. Still they carry on. The White Helmets can’t drive their ambulances down streets due to the sheer devastation and rubble. Still they carry on. The White Helmets have not slept. Still they carry on. The White Helmets are being forced to carry the injured to safety as warplanes circle above. Still they carry on.
It is hard to imagine a group of people more deserving of this year’s Nobel Peace Prize. The announcement will be made this Friday morning in Norway. Yesterday Syrians inside the country and around the world rallied around the White Helmets asking everyone they know to sign up to the campaign -- an incredible 30,000 people responded. Can we match this number today?]

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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#256 Post by Alan H » October 19th, 2016, 7:50 am

Dentists condemn MP's call for child refugees from Calais to have teeth checked
Dentists have condemned calls for the teeth of child refugees to be tested to verify their ages, after a Tory MP suggested those arriving in the UK from Calais "don't look like children".

Images of some of those arriving in Britain on Monday were splashed across some UK papers, with headlines suggesting they may not be under 18.

David Davies, the MP for Monmouth and not to be confused with "Brexit" secretary David Davis, said: "I hope British hospitality is not being abused."


FFS. We're taking in a grand total of just 14 young refugees. FOURTEEN. Count them:

1 human being
2 human beings
3 human beings
4 human beings
5 human beings
6 human beings
7 human beings
8 human beings
9 human beings
10 human beings
11 human beings
12 human beings
13 human beings
14 human beings

That's it. That's all the UK are taking, yet this fucking Tory MP wan't to subject them to unethical medical treatment just in case one of them is a tiny bit older. This same Tory MP blocked a Bill that would have made it illegal to provide rented accommodation that wasn't fit for human habitation.

ETA: Sorry, it was a different Tory MP with the name Davies - there are eight Tory MPs with the name Davies/Davis.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#257 Post by Alan H » October 20th, 2016, 12:42 pm

As a nation would we ever sink so low as to check refugees’ teeth?
The migrants conveyed from Calais may be young enough to dispel doubts. It may be, as some suggest, that they are youths whose experiences have aged them. But as we examine them for signs of maturity or worldliness, don’t lose sight of why the issue of age verification has become so important. We want to do right by a handful of children, but it is really a way of shirking our duty to do the right thing.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#258 Post by Alan H » October 20th, 2016, 12:49 pm

dia society law scotland wales northern ireland home UK selected world politics sport football opinion culture business lifestyle fashion environment tech travel browse all sections Immigration and asylum The Calais child refugees need help – not trial by press in row over ages
While some of the press here are now hunting for pictures of the oldest-looking refugee they can find to try to discredit the whole process, we mustn’t lose sight of some important facts: there are lots of young people at the camp, many have family in the UK, and almost all of the ones I spoke to seemed vulnerable and in need of care. I hope Hassan, Riswan and others succeed in getting that care and are finally made to feel welcome here.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
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Re: SYRIA

#259 Post by Nick » October 20th, 2016, 2:30 pm

Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?

And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?

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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#260 Post by Alan H » October 21st, 2016, 12:17 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: SYRIA

#261 Post by Alan H » October 21st, 2016, 12:23 pm

Nick wrote:Why isn't socialist France doing anything to help the refugees?
France to create 12,000 housing placements for Calais migrants ousted from the 'jungle'

And if some of the Syrians in Calais have a legal right to come to Britain, then the French could help them reach Britain. But they don't appear to b doing so. Why not?
For those illegally in France who do not wish to claim asylum, the state will strengthen “voluntary return and deportation measures”, the document reportedly states. Individuals whose asylum request concerns another EU country could be kept under “house arrest” while their transfer is arranged.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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