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Earliest Quran?

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Compassionist
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Earliest Quran?

#1 Postby Compassionist » January 12th, 2016, 5:39 pm


Compassionist
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#2 Postby Compassionist » January 13th, 2016, 10:23 am

I just saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT8_faUmR1w

What is the truth? How would we know the truth for sure?

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getreal
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#3 Postby getreal » January 13th, 2016, 12:37 pm

I've been reading a lot about Islam recently and I'm afraid I just can't get my head around it.

When Moslems are told that the later sayings of Mo take precedence over any earlier sayings which may contradict them, how do they square this with the fact that all the horrible, nasty stuff came after the love and peace stuff?

Also, how do the justify his robbing of caravans when he was in Medina? He looted the cargo and sold the people as slaves. How do they come to terms with that and still manage to maintain its a religion of peace?

Jesus wasn't perfect (if he existed at all) but at least he was a reasonable role model. Mo was a monster!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#4 Postby Compassionist » January 13th, 2016, 12:49 pm

getreal wrote:I've been reading a lot about Islam recently and I'm afraid I just can't get my head around it.

When Moslems are told that the later sayings of Mo take precedence over any earlier sayings which may contradict them, how do they square this with the fact that all the horrible, nasty stuff came after the love and peace stuff?

Also, how do the justify his robbing of caravans when he was in Medina? He looted the cargo and sold the people as slaves. How do they come to terms with that and still manage to maintain its a religion of peace?

Jesus wasn't perfect (if he existed at all) but at least he was a reasonable role model. Mo was a monster!

We read that an old woman used to put thorns on the path Mohammad walked on and he never took revenge on her. The story said that when the old lady fell ill, Mohammad looked after her. This act of compassion led to the old woman becoming a Muslim. We did not know of any robbing of caravans or selling people as slaves.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#5 Postby getreal » January 13th, 2016, 4:03 pm

I know there's no proof, but if we take it that Muslims are supposed to believe that the Koran is the actual word of God and cannot be changed in any way, then the stories of robbing the caravans,smelling the slaves and other awful stuff he did they must consider to be true. To sat the Koran is not totally true is surely blasphemy?

That's what I don't get. Done Muslims have to learn all the Koran? All the stories? Good and bad? So how come this isn't known? He converted a paltry 150 to Islam when he started in Mecca, when he was driven out and went to medina (I may have confused the two cities!) he then spoke of jihad (not only an inner struggle) and stopped saying Jews and Christians were OK. He used force to convert people. Convert or be sold as a slave. Islam then spread very quickly. This is all in the Koran.

Now, I'm saying it's in the Koran, but I've not read it, I've only read about it. It's very difficult to read, o believe, as it's not in chronological order, instead, it starts with the longest verses and ends with the shortest. However I think you can by Koreans in English in chronological order. I'm going to see if I can find one to read for myself. Maybe what I've read is incorrect. But it was written by Muslims.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#6 Postby Alan H » January 13th, 2016, 4:27 pm

getreal wrote:the stories of robbing the caravans,smelling the slaves and other awful stuff
I suppose that's better than smelling the camels... :exit:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#7 Postby Compassionist » January 13th, 2016, 5:02 pm

getreal wrote:I know there's no proof, but if we take it that Muslims are supposed to believe that the Koran is the actual word of God and cannot be changed in any way, then the stories of robbing the caravans,smelling the slaves and other awful stuff he did they must consider to be true. To sat the Koran is not totally true is surely blasphemy?

That's what I don't get. Done Muslims have to learn all the Koran? All the stories? Good and bad? So how come this isn't known? He converted a paltry 150 to Islam when he started in Mecca, when he was driven out and went to medina (I may have confused the two cities!) he then spoke of jihad (not only an inner struggle) and stopped saying Jews and Christians were OK. He used force to convert people. Convert or be sold as a slave. Islam then spread very quickly. This is all in the Koran.

Now, I'm saying it's in the Koran, but I've not read it, I've only read about it. It's very difficult to read, o believe, as it's not in chronological order, instead, it starts with the longest verses and ends with the shortest. However I think you can by Koreans in English in chronological order. I'm going to see if I can find one to read for myself. Maybe what I've read is incorrect. But it was written by Muslims.

This might surprise you - I was taught to read the Arabic script of the Quran without actually knowing what the Arabic words meant. This is very common. People recite prescribed parts of the Quran from memory (learned by rote learning) during the 5 daily prayers but they don't actually know what they are saying. Obviously, those who actually know Arabic understand what they are reading but the vast majority of Muslims don't actually know Arabic.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#8 Postby Compassionist » January 23rd, 2016, 3:58 pm

getreal wrote:I've been reading a lot about Islam recently and I'm afraid I just can't get my head around it.

When Moslems are told that the later sayings of Mo take precedence over any earlier sayings which may contradict them, how do they square this with the fact that all the horrible, nasty stuff came after the love and peace stuff?

Also, how do the justify his robbing of caravans when he was in Medina? He looted the cargo and sold the people as slaves. How do they come to terms with that and still manage to maintain its a religion of peace?

Jesus wasn't perfect (if he existed at all) but at least he was a reasonable role model. Mo was a monster!

You said that Jesus was a reasonable role model. Please consider the following statements by Jesus. Do they prove Jesus to be reasonable or unreasonable?

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
- Matthew 10:34-39, The Bible (NIV).

49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
- Luke 12:49-53, The Bible (NIV).

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
- 2 Corinthians 6:14, The Bible (NIV).

If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed! Come, Lord!
- 1 Corinthians 16:22, The Bible (NIV).

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
- Matthew 15:21-28, The Bible (NIV).

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
- Luke 22:36, The Bible (NIV).

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#9 Postby getreal » January 29th, 2016, 6:35 pm

Thanks,Comp. sorry to take so long to get back.

I never thought about people learning he Koran in Arabic by rote without understanding what they were saying.

I know The figure of Jesus isn't perfect, I think what I was trying to say was that he didn't seem as bad as Mo.

When I said the later verses were the worst, I meant chronologically-not as they appear in the Koran. You can get chronologically ordered korans, which makes more sense, but I've tried reading hem and honestly, they're as bad as the bible-or the Bran Seer. It could mean anything!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#10 Postby Dave B » January 29th, 2016, 8:49 pm

It has been said that any book written centuries ago only makes sense, in terms of whatever examples it uses, to illustrate its message, will really only make sense in the context of the tine in which it was written.

A millennia or two ago things that seem barbaric to us were possibly part of everyday life. Things, behavious, we take for granted now would possibly horrify our antecedents, even without religious aspects.

But, the problem comes when those ancient values are, mistakenly IMHO, still considered valid, with the moral authority prople ascribe to religion.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#11 Postby Dave B » January 29th, 2016, 9:37 pm

Ooops, once again my post "bounced back". Posted it sone time ago but still in composing screen when I turned the tablet back on - so I hit "submit" thinking I had not done do.

Duh! I hit the "go back" button by accident didn't I?! Obvious ennit!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#12 Postby Compassionist » January 30th, 2016, 8:24 pm

getreal wrote:Thanks,Comp. sorry to take so long to get back.

I never thought about people learning he Koran in Arabic by rote without understanding what they were saying.

I know The figure of Jesus isn't perfect, I think what I was trying to say was that he didn't seem as bad as Mo.

When I said the later verses were the worst, I meant chronologically-not as they appear in the Koran. You can get chronologically ordered korans, which makes more sense, but I've tried reading hem and honestly, they're as bad as the bible-or the Bran Seer. It could mean anything!

Don't worry about the delayed reply. It's ok. It is actually very common for non-Arabic speakers to be taught to read the Quran without knowing what any of the words mean. Interestingly, I only knew of Mo as a benevolent man to be emulated before I came to the UK. He is portrayed in positive light by Muslims and children are brainwashed to think of him as a great man worthy of imitation. It was only after I came to the UK that I heard of negative aspects of him. People don't make decisions based on facts but on their perceptions. Perceptions are easy to manipulate with selective truths and cover ups of negatives. I have never read a chronological Quran but I will check it out on the internet. Thanks for telling me about it.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#13 Postby Compassionist » January 30th, 2016, 8:30 pm

Dave B wrote:It has been said that any book written centuries ago only makes sense, in terms of whatever examples it uses, to illustrate its message, will really only make sense in the context of the tine in which it was written.

A millennia or two ago things that seem barbaric to us were possibly part of everyday life. Things, behavious, we take for granted now would possibly horrify our antecedents, even without religious aspects.

But, the problem comes when those ancient values are, mistakenly IMHO, still considered valid, with the moral authority prople ascribe to religion.

I agree Dave.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#14 Postby getreal » January 31st, 2016, 2:44 pm

Clearly then, Compo, not all Moslems believe the Koran is the actual word of God? Otherwise they'd all agree with Daesh.
However, if they don't, how to the square the fact that Mo claims what he says to have been divinely revealed? Isn't that the basis of Islam?
Maybe they disagree about how it was transcribed onto paper from Mo's words (if we are to believe he was illiterate-which is difficult as he seems to have a good grasp of the Old Testament and other religious books. He was also a very successful trader. I'd have thought that would be difficult if he couldn't write).

The vast majority of Christians don't believe the bible is the actual word of God. Most accept it was written by ordinary people, interpreting things going on. Only real fundamentalists believe the words of threw testament are divine.

I know of no religious Christian group who believe the Old Testament is to be followed as written-Jesus contradicted so much of it, and, after all, Christians, firstly, follow Jesus.

Pooh! My heads beginning. To hurt. If only it was possible to discuss this in person with an Islamic scholar of the " moderate" kind.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#15 Postby Dave B » January 31st, 2016, 6:31 pm

Pooh! My heads beginning. To hurt.
Know the feeling too well, getreal!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#16 Postby Compassionist » January 31st, 2016, 9:58 pm

getreal wrote:Clearly then, Compo, not all Moslems believe the Koran is the actual word of God? Otherwise they'd all agree with Daesh.
However, if they don't, how to the square the fact that Mo claims what he says to have been divinely revealed? Isn't that the basis of Islam?
Maybe they disagree about how it was transcribed onto paper from Mo's words (if we are to believe he was illiterate-which is difficult as he seems to have a good grasp of the Old Testament and other religious books. He was also a very successful trader. I'd have thought that would be difficult if he couldn't write).

The vast majority of Christians don't believe the bible is the actual word of God. Most accept it was written by ordinary people, interpreting things going on. Only real fundamentalists believe the words of threw testament are divine.

I know of no religious Christian group who believe the Old Testament is to be followed as written-Jesus contradicted so much of it, and, after all, Christians, firstly, follow Jesus.

Pooh! My heads beginning. To hurt. If only it was possible to discuss this in person with an Islamic scholar of the " moderate" kind.

I think a lot of Muslims focus on the rituals of prayers and fasting and donating, etc. without worrying about the content of the Quran. The Muslims I know avoid getting into debates about theology.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#17 Postby Dave B » January 31st, 2016, 10:07 pm

There have been many commentators, Muslim and otherwise, who have lamented the learning-by-rite of the Quran with absolutely no understanding of what the words really mean.

Then comes the slavish, often unthinking, submission, to "the Word", that the very name "Islam" means.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: Earliest Quran?

#18 Postby Compassionist » February 1st, 2016, 7:52 pm

Yes.

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#19 Postby Compassionist » March 10th, 2016, 4:32 pm

getreal wrote:I've been reading a lot about Islam recently and I'm afraid I just can't get my head around it.

When Moslems are told that the later sayings of Mo take precedence over any earlier sayings which may contradict them, how do they square this with the fact that all the horrible, nasty stuff came after the love and peace stuff?

Also, how do the justify his robbing of caravans when he was in Medina? He looted the cargo and sold the people as slaves. How do they come to terms with that and still manage to maintain its a religion of peace?

Jesus wasn't perfect (if he existed at all) but at least he was a reasonable role model. Mo was a monster!

Please see: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/abletochoo ... -vs-satan/

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Re: Earliest Quran?

#20 Postby getreal » May 24th, 2016, 10:03 am

I think for the vast majority of Christians, and the main Christian sects, the bible isn't the literal word of God. As far as I understand Islam, though, the Basis of their belief is that the Koran is the actual word of God. Therefore you cannot pick and choose,mwhere as Christians in the main believe the bible to be an interpretation, by humans, of events. That's the difference.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.


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