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SYRIA

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Fia
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Re: SYRIA

#201 Postby Fia » September 26th, 2014, 10:10 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

animist wrote: but whatever you do you mean by calling Isis "some other poor folk"? Would you have called the Nazis "some other poor folk" who were not be bombed?

I'm thinking of the many deaths that are "collateral damage". Usually women and children...

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#202 Postby animist » September 26th, 2014, 10:30 pm

Fia wrote:
animist wrote: but whatever you do you mean by calling Isis "some other poor folk"? Would you have called the Nazis "some other poor folk" who were not be bombed?

I'm thinking of the many deaths that are "collateral damage". Usually women and children...
at present there has been no mention of this, and Isis are an effective army which seem to move fast - in contrast to terrorists like al-Qaeda - and therefore are not surrounded by civilians

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#203 Postby Dave B » September 26th, 2014, 10:33 pm

I'm thinking of the many deaths that are "collateral damage". Usually women and children...
The death of civilians is always bad, but one has to consider what it would have been like in Iraq etc. if we were still using the same tactics as in WW2 and Vietnam. Area and blanket bombing killed tens of thousands for the sake of a few facilities destroyed.

I, unfortunately, know how much work went into ensuring that munitions did their job in the most efficient way back in the 80s. Bombs were designed to "exclude" the use of airfields for 24 hours at least, going off at random times. But, by the rules, those bombs had to explode within that 24 hour period. We effectively did our best to design weapons that would not kill people, not even enemy military personnel (unless, of course, they happened to be on the runways at the time of the attack.) They showed films on TV of RAF planes coming in at about 100 feet to ensure the munitions were pinpoint aimed. That is pushing it! Luckily most of the Iraqis ran for the shelters rather than man the AA guns when they saw the planes coming.

Unfortunately this enemy will hide amongst civilians deliberately, to ensure that non-combatants are killed to give them maximum propaganda, to make the rest of the locals angry at us and make people like us feel bad about the actions of our forces. That is a battle that is virtually un-winable.

Cross posted with animist, animist I think this problem has arisen in Syria where the IS seem to fight a more static war. As (if) they establish more in Iraq they will also become less mobile and it will become a problem. But we are still fighting the "collateral damage" war from the last lot.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Fia
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Re: SYRIA

#204 Postby Fia » September 26th, 2014, 10:40 pm

This is very interesting.
What Cameron is in practice proposing is a recipe for a continuing war and it is this that will make it impossible to defeat the jihadi militants, for Isis is the child of war.

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#205 Postby Dave B » September 27th, 2014, 9:37 am

Fia wrote:This is very interesting.
What Cameron is in practice proposing is a recipe for a continuing war and it is this that will make it impossible to defeat the jihadi militants, for Isis is the child of war.

Also
Mr Cameron says that there should be “no rushing to join a conflict without a clear plan”, but he should keep in mind the warning of the American boxer Mike Tyson that “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth”
Tyson was quoting something that I believe goes back to "The Art of War", reputedly by Sun Tzu 2000 odd years ago, paraphrased, "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

I think this especially applies when the enemy is holding the ground.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#206 Postby Alan H » September 27th, 2014, 10:38 am

Screenshot from 2014-09-27.png
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Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#207 Postby Dave B » September 27th, 2014, 10:41 am

Yup, the money men are laughing all the way to the bank. You could probably wipe out ebola just with the bonuses they make.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#208 Postby animist » September 27th, 2014, 12:10 pm

Fia wrote:This is very interesting.
What Cameron is in practice proposing is a recipe for a continuing war and it is this that will make it impossible to defeat the jihadi militants, for Isis is the child of war.
I don't dispute much of this - I read Cockburn's commentaries in "The Independent" all the time, and I read his book on Saddam Hussein. I doubt that Isis will be defeated, and if they are eliminated, then terrorism will morph into something else - it might be a bit less extreme, as even Al Qaeda now seems to be! Anyway the choice is whether to do nothing and see the Kurds, Yezidis, Xians, Shia and others continue to be killed and exiled, or try to limit this - it is a matter of margins, not absolutes. I don't see anything in what you all say, apart from the undoubted financial costs of involvement, to persuade a humane person that inaction is better than the sort of actions being proposed

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#209 Postby Dave B » September 27th, 2014, 12:22 pm

"All it takes for evil to prosper is that the good do nothing" or something like that.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan H
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Re: SYRIA

#210 Postby Alan H » September 27th, 2014, 1:23 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#211 Postby animist » September 27th, 2014, 1:41 pm

Dave B wrote:"All it takes for evil to prosper is that the good do nothing" or something like that.

yes, in this case, but only because the evil is here and now; I went on demos against the 2003 Iraq invasion, and usually I agree with another dictum, ie that the way to Hell is paved with good intentions. I will try to comment on the Cockburn article in more detail - as I say, I get my thoughts, such as they are, from him largely, but I think he is arguing against Cameron's specific policies rather than against intervention in principle

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#212 Postby animist » January 17th, 2015, 12:32 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 45774.html

it is good to see that the airstrikes are indeed helping to defeat the awful Isis regime, but a pity that its captive inhabitants have to suffer its repression and incompetence

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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#213 Postby animist » March 13th, 2015, 1:42 pm

the Fertile Crescent is becoming less fertile:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 81163.html

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#214 Postby Dave B » March 13th, 2015, 2:12 pm

Yes, they have been saying for years now that the reducing water resources in that area will be cause for, possibly armed, conflict.

IIRC about 10 years ago Turkey was dragged in front of some sort of local international "water court" when they proposed to damn the Euphrates. Threats were made then.

Later: and again last year

Like Africa the population, and produce export markets, are both outgrowing the available resources. In africa the purchase of the best farm land by the Chinese, to send the produce home, exacerbates a situation already made critical by climate change.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#215 Postby animist » April 6th, 2015, 10:36 am

the news that Isis has conquered a district of Damascus seems to reinforce the trend towards the regime of Assad being in effect rehabilitated by the West as the lesser of two very evil evils: and so the Free Syrian Army and non-Isis Islamist groups like Al-Nusra are alike in being crushed between the two opposite poles of Assad's secular (but in fact dependent on the Alawite sect) regime and Isis

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#216 Postby Dave B » July 3rd, 2015, 4:46 pm

Should individuals or families be prevented from expressing their rights by going to Syria, regardless of whichever side in that conflict thet intend to join?

Should they wish to return to the UK, after staying in Syria, should they be subject to "special" treatment and investigation?

For the record my answers are 'no' to the first question and 'yes' to the second.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Nick
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Re: SYRIA

#217 Postby Nick » July 3rd, 2015, 5:11 pm

Dave B wrote:Should individuals or families be prevented from expressing their rights by going to Syria, regardless of whichever side in that conflict thet intend to join?

Should they wish to return to the UK, after staying in Syria, should they be subject to "special" treatment and investigation?

For the record my answers are 'no' to the first question and 'yes' to the second.
I'm inclined to agree, Dave, from a civil liberties pov. This is tempered slightly by not wanting a UK citizen to "assist the enemy", as it were, but I don't think there are sufficient numbers ( or those of sufficient military worth- though this could be subject to special cases) going, to over-ride the civil liberties argument.

But does the state have a duty of care to those under 18? In general the state would seek to protect the young from being put into harm's way. Would that not apply in this case?

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#218 Postby Dave B » July 3rd, 2015, 5:27 pm

Don't know how far the state's duty compares with a parent's wishes.

Yes, for things that are illegal invthis countrt, forced marriages, fgm etc, , there should be protection. But can this rightly apply to the political or religious regime the parent wishes to raise his/her family under? Those are subject to freedom of choice surely, and if the desired regime is not available here?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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animist
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Re: SYRIA

#219 Postby animist » July 4th, 2015, 10:56 am

Dave B wrote:Should individuals or families be prevented from expressing their rights by going to Syria, regardless of whichever side in that conflict thet intend to join?

Should they wish to return to the UK, after staying in Syria, should they be subject to "special" treatment and investigation?

For the record my answers are 'no' to the first question and 'yes' to the second.
I agree with you and don't really see why Britons should not be fighting abroad in principle. The International Brigade who fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War included many Britons, who risked prosecution at home even though they were defending a democratic government. And surely, even in the Isis case, fighting or otherwise helping them abroad is not identical to terrorism, is it?

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Altfish
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Re: SYRIA

#220 Postby Altfish » July 4th, 2015, 6:01 pm

I'm thinking the only solution to this whole ISIS mess is to let them have a state. Like Israel was created for the Jews; well let them have some part of the middle east and create their caliphate

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Dave B
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Re: SYRIA

#221 Postby Dave B » July 5th, 2015, 8:36 am

Altfish wrote:I'm thinking the only solution to this whole ISIS mess is to let them have a state. Like Israel was created for the Jews; well let them have some part of the middle east and create their caliphate
Their programme was, possibly still is, a global caliphate.

Giving them a "state", a stable base on which to build and train a larger overt/covert army, might not be the best idea! And does a country have to "donate" the territory? I would not be surprised, within a year or two, to see a reduction in their aggression as they consilidate and train even more overt/covert fighters.

I doubt the the Saudi Arabia regime if openly financing them but turning a blind eye to those SA businessmen who do so. That should be the main thrust of the fight against them, hit their financial base.

Even warfare is bloody economics by other neans!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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