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In Reason We Trust

Any topics that are primarily about humanism or other non-religious life stances fit in here.
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Altfish
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In Reason We Trust

#1 Post by Altfish » February 6th, 2014, 8:28 pm

I wasn't sure where to post this, but there is a new documentary mainly based on last years Reason Rally in Washington...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Bm8MLYoeg#t=38

Only just found it myself and haven't watched it all yet.

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Dave B
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#2 Post by Dave B » February 6th, 2014, 9:37 pm

Watching it at the moment, a few new (to me) points but mostly usual stuff and a bit repetitious.

Bit like going to a political party conference or a religious service - preaching to the converted, but there are obviously those that need such.

I fear that Tim Minchin's efforts only confirmed my dislike of him. He is a very intelligent bloke but I don't think he makes a good ambassador for atheism and definitely not for Humanism.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#3 Post by animist » February 7th, 2014, 11:38 am

agree with you, Dave, and reason is not as simple as it might seem

chryles
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#4 Post by chryles » April 9th, 2014, 12:52 am

About 40 minutes in. Agree with above comments but my main thought is, I feel sorry for Americans, if it's true that they live with the described level of discrimination for their non-faith. And maybe that's why
there are obviously those that need such.

It's something I've never experienced here in the UK (not knowingly, any way), and I've never kept my opinions to myself.
I hear babies cry,
I watch them grow,
They'll learn much more,
Than I'll ever know.
And I think to myself,
What a wonderful world.

Bob Thiele & George David Weiss

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Dave B
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#5 Post by Dave B » April 9th, 2014, 9:20 am

It's something I've never experienced here in the UK (not knowingly, any way), and I've never kept my opinions to myself.
Just hope that Pickles the Hutt does not get made PM, chryles!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#6 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 7:17 pm

animist wrote:agree with you, Dave, and reason is not as simple as it might seem
No, it isn't as simple as it might seem. In fact, you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate . Moreover, the Atheist has to actually borrow from the Theistic Worldview the things of logic and reason because they are things which ONLY come from a like MIND . Ergo, the Atheist tries to use Theism constructs to help justify their own dogma . Welcome to Theism .

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Alan H
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#7 Post by Alan H » November 19th, 2014, 7:41 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate .
Please explain.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#8 Post by Dave B » November 19th, 2014, 7:56 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
animist wrote:agree with you, Dave, and reason is not as simple as it might seem
No, it isn't as simple as it might seem. In fact, you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate . Moreover, the Atheist has to actually borrow from the Theistic Worldview the things of logic and reason because they are things which ONLY come from a like MIND . Ergo, the Atheist tries to use Theism constructs to help justify their own dogma . Welcome to Theism .
And this is the person who complains that we call him a troll?

Ho hum, another thread usurped in the name of "Dave" s mission to the unbelievers . . .
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#9 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 8:01 pm

Alan H wrote:
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate .
Please explain.

If Materialism (the Humanist worldview of origins) is true, then reason itself is impossible. For if the mental processes are nothing but chemical reactions in the brain, then there is no reason to believe that anything is really true including Ones theory of materialism. Chemicals cant evaluate whether or not a theory is true. Chemicals don't reason, they react. Reason itself is impossible in a world governed only by chemical and physical forces . Further, the only reason why anyone would truly care about anothers wellbeing is because they feel a moral obligation / moral oughtness to do so ... but why feel this way when The Person is simply made up of accidental compilations of atoms ? Atoms don't care, atoms don't think, atoms don't reason , they don't consider whats logical or right, and compassion and caring cant come from accidental atoms and raw chemicals. This is just one more example of the seriously flawed religion of Secular Humanism ---- it isn't even justifiable let alone its constructs being sound.

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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#10 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 8:02 pm

Dave B wrote:
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
animist wrote:agree with you, Dave, and reason is not as simple as it might seem
No, it isn't as simple as it might seem. In fact, you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate . Moreover, the Atheist has to actually borrow from the Theistic Worldview the things of logic and reason because they are things which ONLY come from a like MIND . Ergo, the Atheist tries to use Theism constructs to help justify their own dogma . Welcome to Theism .
And this is the person who complains that we call him a troll?

Ho hum, another thread usurped in the name of "Dave" s mission to the unbelievers . . .
What 'mission' is that ??!

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Dave B
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#11 Post by Dave B » November 19th, 2014, 9:17 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:No, it isn't as simple as it might seem. In fact, you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate . Moreover, the Atheist has to actually borrow from the Theistic Worldview the things of logic and reason because they are things which ONLY come from a like MIND . Ergo, the Atheist tries to use Theism constructs to help justify their own dogma . Welcome to Theism .
Dave B wrote:And this is the person who complains that we call him a troll?

Ho hum, another thread usurped in the name of "Dave" s mission to the unbelievers . . .
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:What 'mission' is that ??!
Well, if your constant preaching here to try to get us to accept your version of the irrational is not a mission what other excuse do you have? Insanity?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#12 Post by animist » November 19th, 2014, 9:27 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Alan H wrote:
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:you don't get things like reason and logic from a Material worldview (Atheism) because you don't get the animate from the inaminate .
Please explain.

If Materialism (the Humanist worldview of origins) is true, then reason itself is impossible. For if the mental processes are nothing but chemical reactions in the brain, then there is no reason to believe that anything is really true including Ones theory of materialism. Chemicals cant evaluate whether or not a theory is true. Chemicals don't reason, they react. Reason itself is impossible in a world governed only by chemical and physical forces . Further, the only reason why anyone would truly care about anothers wellbeing is because they feel a moral obligation / moral oughtness to do so ... but why feel this way when The Person is simply made up of accidental compilations of atoms ? Atoms don't care, atoms don't think, atoms don't reason , they don't consider whats logical or right, and compassion and caring cant come from accidental atoms and raw chemicals. This is just one more example of the seriously flawed religion of Secular Humanism ---- it isn't even justifiable let alone its constructs being sound.
first of all, reason and logic are not animate any more than they are inanimate; if God gives us reason, why do different people reason in different ways? Why can animals as well as humans reason to some extent - are they made in God's image? Chemicals do react, yes, but that does not mean that they - or at least the complex combinations of chemicals which make us up - do not reason. You are in fact committing the logical fallacy of composition when you try to ridicule the fact that ultimately we are indeed composed of matter: what an an atom or chemical can do is different from what a complex order, such as a living organism based on atoms or chemicals, can do.

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Dave B
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#13 Post by Dave B » November 19th, 2014, 9:56 pm

My old cat reasoned quite well. Because he had to push the newly installed cat flap to get out he reasoned that he had to "pull" it to get in. That is logical for a cat!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#14 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 10:08 pm

[quote="animist"

First of all, reason and logic are not animate any more than they are inanimate; if God gives us reason, why do different people reason in different ways? Why can animals as well as humans reason to some extent - are they made in God's image? Chemicals do react, yes, but that does not mean that they - or at least the complex combinations of chemicals which make us up - do not reason. You are in fact committing the logical fallacy of composition when you try to ridicule the fact that ultimately we are indeed composed of matter: what an an atom or chemical can do is different from what a complex order, such as a living organism based on atoms or chemicals, can do.[/quote]

In order......

1. Chemicals don't think and reason . There is no will , there is no motive involved , there is no personal element involved which precludes thinking and reasoning. The atoms consisting of the printing of this post im making have absolutely no tie to the message I wish to convey unless 'I' as a personal intelligent Agent desire them to . Otherwise, they are just random atoms which didn't have order, didn't have a goal in mind, didn't have any meaning ....unless a Personal Agent comes alongside them to make them have meaning. Reason, logic, abstract thought are all aminate because there is a personal intelligent Source behind them -- what you as an atheist have to do is show how they were derived from rocks, dirt, planets, hydrogen gas, helium from the very first thing which became finite , that is... from a very large explosion . In other words, show how the letters in our Posts can form into intelligible information WITHOUT a shred of personal intelligent input.

2. Im pleased to see you used Gods name in a present form. I appreciate your honesty.

3. You label a living organism as complex order and consisting of atoms / chemicals ; but that is NOT all it is. In fact, in the DNA molecules of that living organism, you will find a Directing Agent using specified complexity in the form of a deliberate comprehensible alphabet which are giving instructions as a blueprint to how the cell is to develop . Dawkins himself said that the amount of information in the 'simplest' of a cell is equivalent to an entire volume of encyclopedias of specified information. Atoms and Chemicals DONT direct --- they react and they never react to resemble intelligence in and of themselves ; a pile of wood/nails/glue will never have an outcome resembling intelligence such as completed DogHouse because they were void of intelligence to begin with . What is needed for the operation of the DNA molecule is a Directing Agent / Architect /Engineer telling the vast number of systems within the Cell to function in a very certain way . MicroBiologists assure us that the internal workings of a DNA molecule is so astonishly busy doing separate functions in accordance to instructions that is is equivalent to the infrastructure of a major City like London. Google : Molecular Motors' if youre not convinced how complex a DNA molecule is and these Molecular Motors MUST be formed completely all at once because they cant be built one stage/part at a time thereby rendering Darwinnian Evolution fallacious (other examples upon request) . Messages and Information in all of our experience, has only been known to come from an Intelligent Willful Source, bar none. Carl Sagans SETI Program is predicated on this very proven concept that if we get a message from outer space, then we will know it was from intelligence and not randomly.

4. The animal kingdom was also made by God and he instilled some relation qualities within most of the animal kingdom and it is not uncommon to witness some degree of reason associated with their life. However, there are some entities which greater separate us as Humans from this lower form of life because our Creator wanted to makes us set apart as very special and to makes us non-robotic as freewill Agents.

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Alan H
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#15 Post by Alan H » November 19th, 2014, 10:09 pm

You're doing it again. The format is:

[quote]Blah, blah[/quote]

or

[quote="name"]Blah, blah[/quote]
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#16 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 10:19 pm

Alan H wrote:You're doing it again. The format is:
Blah, blah
or
name wrote:Blah, blah
Then don't join in on the Thread if you've already made up your mind Atheism has to be the way . I wouldn't want you to get bored.

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Alan H
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#17 Post by Alan H » November 19th, 2014, 10:32 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Alan H wrote:You're doing it again. The format is:
Blah, blah
or
name wrote:Blah, blah
Then don't join in on the Thread if you've already made up your mind Atheism has to be the way . I wouldn't want you to get bored.
It seems you are unable or unwilling to even be polite.

I have asked you - politely - now on several occasions to please check your quote tags. They really are very simple and help people's understanding of what you are trying to say.

If you really want to engage with others here, please take heed.

Now, if you are unable or unwilling to answer the questions I and others have asked you, then just say so in the appropriate thread. If you are able to answer, please do so politely.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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YouCanCallMeDave
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#18 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 10:48 pm

Alan H wrote:
It seems you are unable or unwilling to even be polite.

I have asked you - politely - now on several occasions to please check your quote tags. They really are very simple and help people's understanding of what you are trying to say.

If you really want to engage with others here, please take heed.

Now, if you are unable or unwilling to answer the questions I and others have asked you, then just say so in the appropriate thread. If you are able to answer, please do so politely.[/quote]

a. Generally, im as polite as the People im conversing with are polite to me .
b. I would consider 'blah, blah blah' very disrespectful and shows a profound disinterest in the subject matter at hand which includes your actual Faith of Humanism. So, please, don't participate if you aren't interested . The less whiney non interested people on a Forum, the better and im sure the Admin. would agree.
c. Address me suitably, and you wont get upset when the same comes back to you.
d. The software of this Site is the most messed up ive ever encountered ; when I make a reply..nearly all the time I get : ' You may embed only 3 quotes with each other' . Why doesn't the software program automatically reduce the Replied Post down to 2 or less Quotes if this is a concern ? That's the way its done in the USA for the most part. Perhaps you will tell me how to reply so I don't have to go back and erase previously quoted posts that are on the same Post im replying to ?

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Altfish
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#19 Post by Altfish » November 19th, 2014, 10:51 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Alan H wrote:It seems you are unable or unwilling to even be polite.

I have asked you - politely - now on several occasions to please check your quote tags. They really are very simple and help people's understanding of what you are trying to say.

If you really want to engage with others here, please take heed.

Now, if you are unable or unwilling to answer the questions I and others have asked you, then just say so in the appropriate thread. If you are able to answer, please do so politely.
a. Generally, im as polite as the People im conversing with are polite to me .
b. I would consider 'blah, blah blah' very disrespectful and shows a profound disinterest in the subject matter at hand which includes your actual Faith of Humanism. So, please, don't participate if you aren't interested . The less whiney non interested people on a Forum, the better and im sure the Admin. would agree.
c. Address me suitably, and you wont get upset when the same comes back to you.
d. The software of this Site is the most messed up ive ever encountered ; when I make a reply..nearly all the time I get : ' You may embed only 3 quotes with each other' . Why doesn't the software program automatically reduce the Replied Post down to 2 or less Quotes if this is a concern ? That's the way its done in the USA for the most part. Perhaps you will tell me how to reply so I don't have to go back and erase previously quoted posts that are on the same Post im replying to ?
God wrote the software :wink:

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Altfish
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Re: In Reason We Trust

#20 Post by Altfish » November 19th, 2014, 10:55 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Then don't join in on the Thread if you've already made up your mind Atheism has to be the way . I wouldn't want you to get bored.
Oh, we haven't made our mind up but on the current evidence there is no god.

Bored, no it's great fun trying to work out which already debunked strategy you'll use next.

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