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What shall it profit a man?

Any topics that are primarily about humanism or other non-religious life stances fit in here.
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coledavis
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Joined: August 17th, 2008, 6:29 pm

What shall it profit a man?

#1 Post by coledavis » October 14th, 2010, 11:36 am

Although an atheist, I find that many of the works of organised religion are useful, beautiful and occasionally both. I suppose the concentrated efforts of humans towards an end are likely to be.

The literary phrase that appeals to me most, as an idealist, is 'What shall it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and loseth his very soul'. Ok, Nietzche might call this slave mentality and perhaps, as someone who is not rich or powerful, his criticism applies to me. However, if this phrase is to be taken seriously - leaving aside the gender issue - what word should be used for 'soul'. Milton refers of course to something immortal. I suppose integrity is a possibility, but can anyone suggest an alternative word to soul which doesn't ring of immortality, spirit (too non-materialist for me) or psychoanalysis (something I hate more than religion - some would say it is a religion).

I'm back in England at the moment, on a becalmed sea.
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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#2 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » October 14th, 2010, 12:36 pm

Welcome back, Cole.
coledavis wrote: ... can anyone suggest an alternative word to soul which doesn't ring of immortality, spirit (too non-materialist for me) or psychoanalysis (something I hate more than religion - some would say it is a religion).
Humanity? Conscience?

Emma

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Dave B
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#3 Post by Dave B » October 14th, 2010, 3:47 pm

but can anyone suggest an alternative word to soul which doesn't ring of immortality,
Hi, Cole, my thesaurus offers, amongst others, psyche, essence, heart, core, in terms of single words - otherwise it's two worders like "animating principle" and "vital/driving force".

Otherwise I agree with you about the poetry of the religious usage of language. What does it matter who invented or uses a phrase or saying if that saying has a universal value?

Bugger Nietzche, I think he was a miserable sod anyway!

Perhaps we need to coin another word - maybe ask the BHA to run a competition for entries to a "Humanist Thesaurus" or something.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#4 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » October 14th, 2010, 4:14 pm

Hmm. I've just noticed that the English Revised Version and American Standard Version both have: "For what doth it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?" In Greek (Stephen's Textus Receptus, 1550) it's: τι γαρ ωφελησει ανθρωπον εαν κερδηση τον κοσμον ολον και ζημιωθη την ψυχην αυτου. And the word ψυχην seems to be a form of ψυχή (psyche), meaning breath, or spirit, or soul, or life, or life force.

What does the question mean anyway? When I look at the whole passage, rather than just that isolated phrase, it doesn't seem like poetry to me, even in the King James version; it seems like the ravings of a madman:
34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Emma

peterangus
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#5 Post by peterangus » October 14th, 2010, 5:07 pm

coledavis wrote:..... can anyone suggest an alternative word to soul which doesn't ring of immortality,........
Self respect......?
Peter Angus

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Dave B
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#6 Post by Dave B » October 14th, 2010, 5:43 pm

it doesn't seem like poetry to me, even in the King James version; it seems like the ravings of a madman:
Stripped of any purely religious connotations I do feel that there is a kind of poetry in many Bible passages - there is a lot of basic common sense and "neutral" stuff in there. I can well imagine similar phrases running off the end of Bill Shakespeare's quill.

There again, there are those that do not like old Bill or any such stuff!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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coledavis
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#7 Post by coledavis » October 14th, 2010, 7:19 pm

Not a keen Shakespeare man myself, although Macbeth is an excellent play. I think the best of Ben Jonson is much under-rated; unlike Shakespeare's comedies, modern people can find The Alchemist amusing.
http://www.coledavis.org - insight analyst, specialist in the interpretation of surveys for charities and education

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Dave B
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#8 Post by Dave B » October 14th, 2010, 7:27 pm

I keep saying that I should look further into Ben Jonson, he provided one of my favourite quotes, " Language most shows a man; speak that I might see thee."
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Carja
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#9 Post by Carja » October 14th, 2010, 7:33 pm

peterangus wrote:
coledavis wrote:..... can anyone suggest an alternative word to soul which doesn't ring of immortality,........
Self respect......?
I like that. I also thought of "peace of mind".
Laugh often/love much;leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child,a garden patch,or a redeemed social condition;play w/enthusiasm & sing w/exultation;know even 1 life has breathed easier because you lived. This is success.B.A.Stanley

seyorni
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#10 Post by seyorni » October 15th, 2010, 3:12 am

Honour, perhaps

Nick
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#11 Post by Nick » October 15th, 2010, 11:37 am

I would agree with Emma on both counts. Taking Cole's quotation on it's own, I'd choose "humanity", but taking the biblical quotation as a whole, it seems perilously close to a christian call to Jihad.

Gottard
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Re: What shall it profit a man?

#12 Post by Gottard » October 15th, 2010, 3:55 pm

Innermost sentimental spirit.
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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