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Getting Married or Engaged ...

Any topics that are primarily about humanism or other non-religious life stances fit in here.
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Kaoru
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Getting Married or Engaged ...

#1 Post by Kaoru » May 8th, 2010, 6:40 am

I've witnessed this phenomenon twice in recent times and I just don't understand it.

Two separate sets of people I know have recently announced their engagements. Both sets of couples have been living with their partners for a very long time which indicates to me that they get along well together and that they love each other too, and in the eyes of the law, having been in a defacto relationship for as long as they have, they're legally a couple. Great isn't it!

So, why have they become engaged? What is the purpose of becoming engaged and then getting married? To announce to the world that they love their partners? I already knew that. I didn't congratulate them on it, I don't know why but it just seems that people don't go about congratulating each other for having partners very much.

So when they announce that they're about to sign some paperwork that states what everybody knows anyway, people start congratulating them and buying them gifts?

Does anyone understand this ridiculous phenomenon?

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jaywhat
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#2 Post by jaywhat » May 8th, 2010, 6:57 am

Sort of agree with you on this but I guess being 'engaged' is the sort of state you are in once you have decided to get married. It also involves a bit of celebration and maybe buying of a ring !
As for the paper work, that depends what country you live in but in most places it 'fixes' the relationship in legal terms and gives the kids a definite surname (not always) and also sorts out things like ownership and money and so on.

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Ninny
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#3 Post by Ninny » May 8th, 2010, 7:59 am

I agree with Jaywhat! So much so, that I married him, though we were never engaged. It does seem to be a way of getting people to give you stuff!

(In the UK, there is no such thing as a common law marriage, although most people think there is; only marriage or civil partnership give you legal rights.)

Kaoru
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#4 Post by Kaoru » May 8th, 2010, 8:24 am

What I'm getting at is why it is necessary to get engaged or married, and why other people feel a need express congratulations.

If I knew that these two people were in love and had lived together for a long time, why would they need to get engaged and then presumably married, and why should I be compelled to express congratulations when I already knew that they loved each other and had ample opportunity to congratulate them on their love for each other previously.

lewist
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#5 Post by lewist » May 8th, 2010, 9:05 am

In Scots law there was marriage by cohabit and repute which was a means to give people the rights of marriage without actually going through a ceremony. Thus modern bidie ins would be regarded as married with all the rights and obligations, and particularly that their children were regarded as legitimate with all the rights of inheritance and the like. This is in sharp contrast to the English laws of bastardy which did exactly the opposite. The laws regarding cohabit and repute were repealed in the eighties as being no longer necessary but I'm not sure that was so.

Marriage suited me. If Maureen had not died I would still be very happily married to her. It defined a large part of me and who I was. When we were young if you wanted to live together and have children marriage was what you did.

Nowadays people still get married as an acknowledgement of long term commitment to each other and to give both parents equal rights where any children of the relationship are concerned. It's also an excuse for a party and if you get engaged as well, hey, two parties!

People give you things too. If the couple have been living together for years and have all the household things they need, they can ask for contributions to their adventure honeymoon in South America, you know the sort of thing, only £100 pays for his 'n hers bungee jumping in the Amazon basin with real crocodiles or the like. In our day we got a teapot or bedlinen.

For us it was a happy time. Happiness is the only good.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

Maria Mac
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#6 Post by Maria Mac » May 8th, 2010, 10:18 am

Kaoru wrote:What I'm getting at is why it is necessary to get engaged or married, and why other people feel a need express congratulations.
It isn't 'necessary' to get engaged or married and why couples like the ones you describe want to is a question only they can answer.

I never expected to get married and did not marry the father of my children, who was my partner for fourteen years. When I was 49 and never having lived with him, I married Alan. I certainly didn't think it was 'necessary' to get engaged or married to him but by doing so we were demonstrating to each other and our families our commitment to each other and our intention to be together forever which, at our age, both with almost grown children and properties, was significant. I was telling my ill mother, my brothers and my children - all of whom were anxious about me - that I was going to be OK, I had someone to look after me and, all being well, I wasn't going to spend whatever time I have left alone.

In a nutshell, it was a decision made with the heart, rather than the head and I think that probably goes for many couples who don't feel they have to get married but do anyway. It may not be easy for anyone else to understand a decision that is emotionally fulfilling rather than rational.

As for the getting engaged and expressing congratulations...that's just tradition and it's one that Alan and I weren't exactly of the same mind about. We agreed to get married 15 months before we did and I didn't like that Alan told loads of people because the decision was a private matter that concerned only ourselves and families. That's maybe because I was in very difficult circumstances at the time caring for my dying mother and celebrating the future, as it were, felt wrong. But the key word is 'celebrating': when people announce their engagement they are announcing a decision that has made them happy and to respond with congratulations is simply to say that you are happy for them.

Marian
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#7 Post by Marian » May 8th, 2010, 11:16 am

Kaoru wrote:What I'm getting at is why it is necessary to get engaged or married, and why other people feel a need express congratulations.
I don't know that I can really add anything to what everyone else has said but here's my two cents (pence?) It's not necessary to get engaged/married here as we do recognize C/L but it is a social convention that lots of people think is worthwhile.
Personally, I don't know there is any real benefit, other than to get prezzies. Separating is a heck of a lot cheaper if you don't do the formal ceremony. Maybe people get married to let others know this couple is 'off-limits' as potential mates. Then there is the 'love' thing and I'm far too cynical right this minute to even take a stab at that one.
Kaoru wrote:If I knew that these two people were in love and had lived together for a long time, why would they need to get engaged and then presumably married, and why should I be compelled to express congratulations when I already knew that they loved each other and had ample opportunity to congratulate them on their love for each other previously.
I think the congrats part is also social convention and as well as social lubricant. You congratulate them because you conceivably are happy for their decision.
If the couple in question don't fully understand that you are thrilled about their being together 'forever', then your not saying anything might indicate to them that you are completely upset and against their marriage to each other. It's the kind of thing that people can get quite upset about.
Transformative fire...

Kaoru
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#8 Post by Kaoru » May 8th, 2010, 11:40 am

Good responses, enjoying reading the thoughts.

Marian, you've said something here that is at the core of all of these thoughts about social convention in my mind:
If the couple in question don't fully understand that you are thrilled about their being together 'forever', then your not saying anything might indicate to them that you are completely upset and against their marriage to each other. It's the kind of thing that people can get quite upset about.
That's the thing. I don't believe in certain things, yet if I don't relent and conform then I'm ostracised. That isn't fair!

I don't believe in christmas yet I have people who know that I don't believe in christmas wishing me a merry christmas. I like having a good time with friends, I don't believe that I have to buy them a card or present to remain their friends for another year, but if I don't (which I don't), I'm risk being outcast.

It's mother's day here tomorrow, yet I've no plans to call my mother. It most certainly doesn't mean that I don't love her, it actually means that I don't like many aspects of capitalism and I also don't believe in creating waste (i.e. buying things that people don't ask for, wrapping it in paper that gets thrown out along with a card).

So, sooner or later people have to stand up to things like this, capitalism and waste especially. I don't like to see people follow in their parents footsteps without knowing why they're doing something, marriage and engagements are a typical example of what I mean.

I like to question things, a lot. Suppose you've guessed that. It doesn't necessarily mean that I don't find the responses interesting and well-reasoned.

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getreal
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#9 Post by getreal » May 8th, 2010, 2:06 pm

The whole "getting engaged" thing is totally beyond me. Surely when you announce that you are going to get married that is enough. I have heard of people saying that they are going to "get engaged in 6 months"! WTF!!! When you announce you are getting married that is in effect you "becoming engaged" and people saying they are getting engaged but have no plans to get married yet. We didn't get engaged because I felt it was both meaningless (we just told our friends we were saving up to get married - do people still do that nowadays?) and it was a callous excuse for presents from other people.

As for Mother's Day; when we were children we were forbidden from buying anything for mum. A home made card and a bunch of wild flowers was more than sufficient. She still gets angry if we spend money on gifts for mother's day. It's a day for the card makers to screw more money from you (as me mum would say :D )

I completely agree about christmas presents. I took the plunge a couple of years ago and told all my friends I was skint and they'd get something home made. A couple of years on and we all do that. My present to others is usually chutney or jam and a friend who bakes gives home made fruit cake.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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jaywhat
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#10 Post by jaywhat » May 8th, 2010, 3:22 pm

We do not do xmas in any way - no cards, no presents; people soon get the idea that xmas is not something we are prepared to celebrate in any way.
At first some 10 years ago we sent letters to people instead of cards saying that we preferred to give a donation to the BHA - and took the opportunity to publicise that and the NSS as well.
We said we would give £1 to the BHA for every card we received - so one of my sisters sent 4 or 5 cards. She has not kept it up!

Marian
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#11 Post by Marian » May 8th, 2010, 4:34 pm

Kaoru wrote:
If the couple in question don't fully understand that you are thrilled about their being together 'forever', then your not saying anything might indicate to them that you are completely upset and against their marriage to each other. It's the kind of thing that people can get quite upset about.
That's the thing. I don't believe in certain things, yet if I don't relent and conform then I'm ostracised. That isn't fair!
Yep, you're right and it isn't fair. The rules for breaking social conformity are quite strict and the more personal you get about your beliefs and your integrity when other people are involved, the worse it gets. For example, my in-laws are very close to being bible-banging xians. The other relatives live near them and all believe the same thing, more or less. On Facebook, I am virtually a pariah because I am vocal about my atheism. The message I get is: don't question the status quo from the group in power or you'll pay.
Yet, I feel strongly about my stand and I think to myself, what if I were to cave in? Is that going to help me, are those people going to travel 3000 miles to help with Jr? Are they going to do the xian thing and go out of their way to assist? NO! :laughter: Then why bother.

Don't know if this is true across the board but it seems that as a female, the expectations for social conformity are even stronger. I think this is often different for men in some ways; maybe it's a difference in bonding methods or something?

Women are somehow expected to be the nurturers and carers of relationships between and among people. Part of that expectation means showing that you are completely thrilled about a wedding/engagement even if you can't stand the whole idea, as an example. Women often learn to pretend very well to uphold that social dynamic. I suspect it's about being nice-nice so that people's feelings don't get hurt as well as social currency.
I'm sure you've seen that if you don't fit this mold and especially if you march to the beat of your own drum, look out!

Kaoru wrote:I don't believe in christmas yet I have people who know that I don't believe in christmas wishing me a merry christmas. I like having a good time with friends, I don't believe that I have to buy them a card or present to remain their friends for another year, but if I don't (which I don't), I'm risk being outcast.
:laughter: Oh yeah, the merry xmas thing happens to me a lot too. It's probably because no one believe that you really don't believe in vast consumerism nor off-the-wall nonsense. When people wish me merry xmas, I want to take them by the lapels and shout at them, 'do you have your listening ears on? :D

Kaoru wrote:It's mother's day here tomorrow, yet I've no plans to call my mother.
Yeah, here too. :rolleyes: I don't want to call my mother because I think she did a sh**-ass job of raising me and continues to make life hell so why should I recognize that? Cold and heartless bit** that I am. You can see why I might be ostracized though...that's a little too strong for most people to handle. So, I pretend for the 30sec that I'm talking to her, that she did all the right things...
Oh sorry, did I say all that out loud...oops! :wink:
Kaoru wrote:I like to question things, a lot. Suppose you've guessed that. .
Questioning is good but it does come at a price which is why I suppose most don't do it. It's easier to leave the boat in steady water.
Transformative fire...

Nick
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#12 Post by Nick » May 8th, 2010, 6:53 pm

As a saddo single man (All together now....Aaaaah) a couple of thoughts...

First of all, a grumpy rant! How I hate the phrase "GET married". Maybe it's the hard G, I don't know. But for such a wonderful thing, it just strikes me as ugly. How about just " to marry"? Or "to be married"? Much nicer. :D

For me, marrying my partner would be an exclamation to my partner and the world in general of my relationship to her. I would want to shout it from the roof-tops. I would want to signal to my friends and relations that our relationship was special.

Given that such a celebration takes a bit of planning a period of 'being engaged' makes sense. However, planning to 'GET engaged' seems to me like bad romatic planning. I dream of dramatic, romantic engagements... To announce a proposed engagement seems naff to me..... There is a difference between the timing of an engagement between a couple and it's announcement to the world, of course. That's fair enough. And, so long as the resulting ecstacy is mutual, I don't care who asks whom.

There's a difference between "trying things out for size", as it were, and declaring to the world that there is something special and (dog willing) permanent. Some sort of ceremony strikes me as the ideal way to express that.

However, by saying all this, I have revealed myself as the definitive male geek: a man who know 101 ways of making love..
Spoiler:
....but who hasn't got a girl-friend :sad:

Nirvanam
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#13 Post by Nirvanam » May 9th, 2010, 6:50 am

Kaoru wrote:I've witnessed this phenomenon twice in recent times and I just don't understand it.

Two separate sets of people I know have recently announced their engagements. Both sets of couples have been living with their partners for a very long time which indicates to me that they get along well together and that they love each other too, and in the eyes of the law, having been in a defacto relationship for as long as they have, they're legally a couple. Great isn't it!

So, why have they become engaged? What is the purpose of becoming engaged and then getting married? To announce to the world that they love their partners? I already knew that. I didn't congratulate them on it, I don't know why but it just seems that people don't go about congratulating each other for having partners very much.

So when they announce that they're about to sign some paperwork that states what everybody knows anyway, people start congratulating them and buying them gifts?

Does anyone understand this ridiculous phenomenon?
Nice topic. I don't really think that engagement and marriage are necessary, although I was married...and technically still am. the only reason I think I got married, as in signing on a paper, was because it would have some legal bindings that would not allow me to be unfair to my partner just in case we decided to split. We did not have any marriage ceremony, nothing. Hell, we didn't even give sweets (traditionally Indians offer sweets to strangers on a "happy" occasion) to the people at the Registrar's office! And even on the legal front I have had a different experience. Recently we split but its been such a matured way of going about it that there is absolutely no legal obligations or need to split savings, etc. I guess it has to do with the relationship we shared.

Now, when I do get serious with my partner, if she wants us to get engaged and/or married, I'd let her know what I feel and leave it to her to decide. If she still wants to then I'd do it. To me its not such a great thing to go thru the ceremony although I'd feel awkward but the fact that it would make my partner happy would be worth it I guess.

A point mentioned by Marian, is especially interesting: the thing that if one is married it is sending a message to the world that he/she is off limits. Maybe it actually works...I mean I can tell honestly that the moment I know a woman is married, the impulse to flirt reduces quite a lot in me...lol! So maybe it works...although I never wore a ring or any of those marriage symbols myself.

Kaoru
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#14 Post by Kaoru » May 9th, 2010, 7:34 am

Some interesting charities there Jaywhat!

BHA – Brisbane Hockey Association
NSS – National Statistical Service

Or at least that’s what I came up with when I searched them. Good idea though, but instead of saying you’ll donate a dollar for every card you receive, maybe it could’ve been you’ll donate two dollars for every card you don’t receive from family and friends, that way the environment wins too.

And while I’m on donating to charities, I tend to donate to the more obscure ones, you know, the ones that mainstream society doesn’t donate to. For instance any charity that supports people that ignorantly bigoted religious groups discriminate against. Like GLBTI ones for instance. The others get enough money from the sheeple.

Regarding Christmas – I was watching a great 12 part series on You Tube last night with Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and Dennett sitting around having a chat. Turns out that they all don’t mind the festivities at Christmas. Strange that.

Here’s a link to the series, the bit I mentioned was in about part 10 or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuyUz2XLp1E

Marian, everything’s interconnected isn’t it? You mention that for women, the expectation for social conformity is much higher than for men and I agree totally.

And as someone who assumed that they were transitioning from male to female, it was one of the most horrible things for me to try and seem genuine about when I clearly couldn’t give a shit about what drives a lot of mainstream women.

I tried to live that for several years after my transition and it was doing my head in totally and making me start to question whether I really was a woman all along. In the last two years I’ve pulled back a lot, and although I know my attitude now will see my family thinking "see, 'he's' not really a woman", and have me kicked out of the Trans Women Union, I firmly believe that I’ve done the right thing for my own sanity, and I believe that it’s only the women that speak up about that rubbish part of female life that are really and truly happy.

But I’ve no right to generalize, I know that, but I consider that the reason for this may lay in that women are generally more conservative than men, and that prudishness and keeping up appearances is unfortunately more common among women and that it just keeps being passed on from mother to daughter and is never questioned by you guessed it, those that never question anything.

I come from a particularly conservative family on my mothers side, and as part of my recent introspection I pulled their conservatism and values apart quite thoroughly. My partner believes that this “keeping up appearance” stuff stems from the Victorian era, but I’ve forgotten how, but I believe that’s why the expectation for social conformity is higher among women.

Gottard
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#15 Post by Gottard » May 9th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Nick wrote:As a saddo single man (All together now....Aaaaah) a couple of thoughts...
We were at a restaurant when a friend proposed "why, we all single women and men do not decide to live in the same building (one little apt. each)? I mean for mutual assistance if needed"; not a bad idea I said but an utopian one.
I rate the geographical area where I live (Ticino to North Lombardia) as the worst place for single men, or if you prefer, the best for a single women.
Everything fine if you socialize with men but socializing with women can cost you a fortune!
The custom here goes that women never pay if drinking/eating out and, if she's really kind to you, you can have a drink (rarely a lunch) offered at her place ...can imagine if she's not good at cooking! The situation is pier (more resented) if you come from Northern Europe where the habit is different.
Nick, I wouldn't wear a ring, not because unconventional but because of my off-limit age.
I am thoroughly contrary to what many local friends have done (or planning): to marry/partner a relatively young Romanian or Ukrainian and enjoy your life.
I must love to have someone at home :love:
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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jaywhat
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#16 Post by jaywhat » May 9th, 2010, 7:26 pm

Kaoru wrote:Some interesting charities there Jaywhat!

BHA – Brisbane Hockey Association
NSS – National Statistical Service

.
Sorry about that -

British Humanist Association www.humanism.org.uk

National Secular Society www.secularism.org.uk

Marian
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#17 Post by Marian » May 9th, 2010, 9:05 pm

Kaoru wrote: Regarding Christmas – I was watching a great 12 part series on You Tube last night with Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and Dennett sitting around having a chat.
I think I've seen that vid but I'll take a look later.
Kaoru wrote:...it was one of the most horrible things for me to try and seem genuine about when I clearly couldn’t give a shit about what drives a lot of mainstream women.
I was born with female organs and I don't give a shit about what mainstream women think. I've found that it's even worse depending on the socioeconomic status of the women in question. It seems the richer they are, the more you've got to conform.
Kaoru wrote:...I know my attitude now will see my family thinking "see, 'he's' not really a woman", and have me kicked out of the Trans Women Union, I firmly believe that I’ve done the right thing for my own sanity, and I believe that it’s only the women that speak up about that rubbish part of female life that are really and truly happy.
I would hazard a guess that your family would probably look for any reason to do the 'she's not really a woman' dance. I didn't know there was a Union for Trans people; what kind of dues are you paying? :D Ultimately, it's really about your own sanity, isn't it?
Somebody once said, " To thine own self be true"; that guy was pretty smart :wink:
Kaoru wrote:But I’ve no right to generalize, I know that, but I consider that the reason for this may lay in that women are generally more conservative than men, and that prudishness and keeping up appearances is unfortunately more common among women and that it just keeps being passed on from mother to daughter and is never questioned by you guessed it, those that never question anything.
Did you mean conservative in terms of sexuality or just in general? In terms of keeping up appearances, I think upper middle class might be even worse than the general population. What with the keeping up with the Jones'. I'm not sure that just women play that game.
Kaoru wrote:I come from a particularly conservative family on my mothers side, and as part of my recent introspection I pulled their conservatism and values apart quite thoroughly. My partner believes that this “keeping up appearance” stuff stems from the Victorian era, but I’ve forgotten how, but I believe that’s why the expectation for social conformity is higher among women.
This pulling apart of values is quite an enlightening experience. Always a fun activity if your values are fundamentally opposed to theirs. :D Did you learn anything you wish to share?
I'm curious about this idea of the Victorian era being the beginning of the keeping up appearances thing. I would have thought that the aristocracy pre-Victorian era would have been doing that already but maybe not.
Transformative fire...

Kaoru
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#18 Post by Kaoru » May 9th, 2010, 11:52 pm

peneasy wrote:I rate the geographical area where I live (Ticino to North Lombardia) as the worst place for single men, or if you prefer, the best for a single women. ... The custom here goes that women never pay if drinking/eating out and, if she's really kind to you, you can have a drink (rarely a lunch) offered at her place ...
I don't necessarily agree Peneasy. It seems that if you're a gay man you'd have an unbelievably wild time, but if you're a Lesbian woman you wouldn't. But perhaps you would behind the closed doors of your own home, (if you bought your own drinks of course). Is that some kind of conspiracy to keep Lesbian women off the streets?

Kaoru
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Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#19 Post by Kaoru » May 10th, 2010, 12:35 am

There's a lot of pressure on trans women to conform and to "prove" themselves to other women Marian. I don't think this would be unique to trans women, and I don't believe that it's just the women in society playing this social conforming game, I believe some of it unfortunately stems from the trans women themselves. I think they have unrealistic expectations of their lives post-transitions, Many of them believe they'll be able to shake off their background and any old ways completely and be totally accepted by mainstream women as their exact equals.

The unfortunate truth is that many in mainstream society don't let you into their little club and if you find yourself in a world where that is important, i.e. anywhere outside the diverse or free-thinking communities, and you're also denying your background to yourself, then you're going to go around the twist.

After years of aspiring to this myself I now realise that I have to embrace my background. I understand that I'm a woman, born with a feminine mind that was corrupted for about thirty years of male socialisation and therefore I just can't ever be the same as other women in mainstream society. Anyway, I'm getting way off track here.
Kaoru wrote:But I’ve no right to generalize, I know that, but I consider that the reason for this may lay in that women are generally more conservative than men, and that prudishness and keeping up appearances is unfortunately more common among women and that it just keeps being passed on from mother to daughter and is never questioned by you guessed it, those that never question anything.
Did you mean conservative in terms of sexuality or just in general? In terms of keeping up appearances, I think upper middle class might be even worse than the general population. What with the keeping up with the Jones'. I'm not sure that just women play that game.
I meant in general which includes sexuality. I think you're right about the socioeconomic factor that you've mentioned, and I also think you're right with the upper-middle class thing too.

I don't particularly like "keeping up appearances" to describe what I'm thinking here although my partner thinks that it describes it accurately. What I mean is if you've got a small community for instance, say 8 houses with 8 heteronormative families, yet in each house there are things being kept from the community like:

1. An alcoholic wife in one house;
2. A gay son in another house;
3. A daughter who has an abortion in another;
4. A husband that cross-dresses in another;
5. ...

All of these families keep this information from all the other families, sometimes some of these things are known by the other families but sometimes not, but everyone just acts as if nothing at all is out of the ordinary, out of the strict bounds of the stereotype. Everyone is keeping up appearances in front of their neighbours when the reality is that they have things happening in their houses that they're not proud of. Note they're not proud because they perceive that any of these things, if discovered by others, would separate their families from the rest of the community and that they would be talked about behind their backs. Not all of these things are bad in reality, in fact most aren't, but in conservative neighbourhoods, the fear of not being seen to conform is compounded, and kept in check by the fact that they talk behind backs - to keep everyone in their community the same, predictable, cozy etc.

I think this is more true of women, and I know it's very typical of what's playing out in my extended family on my mothers side. Not only are they all pretending that they (as the wives and mothers) have the perfect family and household, but they, in the end, have even kept their husband losing their job for innocent reasons from each other because it looks bad.

Would you agree with this analogy, and would you think that this can lead to the women in this community (mostly the women, but often the men too), not wanting to appear to be different from their neighbours, well only if it's a positive thing anyway, and therefore the pressure is on to hide much of reality (incidentally this dynamic is extremely harmful to truly diverse children), and to not only hide reality but to appear to be happy when your daughter announces their engagement, because it means that they are conforming and making your family look more normal.

I could write about this forever as you've probably realised, but that should probably do for now.
Did you learn anything you wish to share?
Plenty, this is part of it, there's much more that will probably come out in future posts.
I'm curious about this idea of the Victorian era being the beginning of the keeping up appearances thing. I would have thought that the aristocracy pre-Victorian era would have been doing that already but maybe not.
Wasn't the pre-Victorian era quite debaucherous? I can't remember, but I thought it was the Victorian Era that changed all that. I'll have to look it up and ask my partner.

Gottard
Posts: 1306
Joined: October 3rd, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: Getting Married or Engaged ...

#20 Post by Gottard » May 10th, 2010, 10:41 am

peneasy wrote:I rate the geographical area where I live (Ticino to North Lombardia) as the worst place for single men, or if you prefer, the best for a single women. ... The custom here goes that women never pay if drinking/eating out and, if she's really kind to you, you can have a drink (rarely a lunch) offered at her place ...
I don't necessarily agree Peneasy. It seems that if you're a gay man you'd have an unbelievably wild time, but if you're a Lesbian woman you wouldn't. But perhaps you would behind the closed doors of your own home, (if you bought your own drinks of course). Is that some kind of conspiracy to keep Lesbian women off the streets?[/quote]

I can't grasp the clue!? Wouldn't be fairer that friends of any sexes share the bill?!
At any rate, yes this area is rather hostile to gay/lesbian attitudes ....but slowly evolving.
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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