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Rational argument?

Just a place where all John's threads can be kept nice and tidy.
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John Jones
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Joined: October 18th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Rational argument?

#1 Postby John Jones » October 19th, 2010, 4:31 pm

"Rational" argument?

There are no "logical" arguments. Tautologies, contradictions and deductions show nothing or else show facts that are already in full view.

There are no "scientific" arguments. Science deals in facts.

Then let us be square, for argument's sake. Argument is about raising voices, descending fists, and lighting fuses.

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Dave B
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Re: Rational argument?

#2 Postby Dave B » October 19th, 2010, 5:29 pm

Argument is about raising voices, descending fists, and lighting fuses.
I would describe that as a row or an altercation.

An argument, taken away from its quotidian use (as yours above), means a discussion between two unlike stances. It can be gentle, polite reasoning and all nice things like that. Unless science provides an unassailable fact (name one please) all things are open to argument or agreement (and that agreement might be wrong.)

Between science and belief there are many"arguments" that are pointless because faith is not susceptible to proof.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Paolo
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Re: Rational argument?

#3 Postby Paolo » October 19th, 2010, 10:54 pm

John Jones wrote:"Rational" argument?

There are no "logical" arguments. Tautologies, contradictions and deductions show nothing or else show facts that are already in full view.

There are no "scientific" arguments. Science deals in facts.

Then let us be square, for argument's sake. Argument is about raising voices, descending fists, and lighting fuses.

There is a difference between declarations of opinion and arguments. All you have said is a matter of opinion with no support - it is not an argument because it is not rational. An argument that isn't rational can be dismissed out-of-hand, since it has no internal consistency or justification. Raised voices are just noise, descending fists are just violence and lit fuses are the last resort of the fundamentally wrong.

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jaywhat
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Re: Rational argument?

#4 Postby jaywhat » October 20th, 2010, 6:44 am

Chambers dictionary has argument as (among others)
1) reason or a series of reasons offered or available as proof or inducement
2) exchange of such reasons
3) debate
4) an unfriendly discussion

Before arguing about what arguing is, it is worthwile choosing which shade of meaning one is using.

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John Jones
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Re: Rational argument?

#5 Postby John Jones » October 20th, 2010, 2:21 pm

If I can answer everyone-

Argument is rational or polite when we warn others how big our bomb is, where it is, and when it will go off.

Although, in the end, argument assembles facts. There's nothing logical or rational about assembling facts, there is only force and persuasion. Science provides us with our assortments of facts, like the fact that the world is round and that we can only directly see one side at once. Once we have our facts we pick and choose, to best advantage.

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Dave B
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Re: Rational argument?

#6 Postby Dave B » October 20th, 2010, 5:21 pm

Argument is rational or polite when we warn others how big our bomb is, where it is, and when it will go off.
This is an argument? Sounds rather like a threat to me.

Whether something is, or is not, an argument of the head banging kind depends on the personalities and motives of the parties involved. In these threads your personality and motivation seems explicitly aimed at starting an argument (head banging variety) rather simply offering points. Do you involve yourself with debating societies where point scoring is the main aim?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Marian
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Re: Rational argument?

#7 Postby Marian » October 21st, 2010, 2:26 am

I don't know about everyone else but I'm getting a psychic link that tells me...wait for it....our newest friend John Jones might just be a troll dressed up as a forum poster. Either that or the meds need some fine tuning... :D Or am I getting straight to the point too quickly?
Transformative fire...

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jaywhat
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Re: Rational argument?

#8 Postby jaywhat » October 21st, 2010, 7:07 am

Marian wrote:I don't know about everyone else but I'm getting a psychic link that tells me...wait for it....our newest friend John Jones might just be a troll dressed up as a forum poster. Either that or the meds need some fine tuning... :D Or am I getting straight to the point too quickly?


Are you saying this thread is a farse
and the man is talking out of his arse?

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Gottard
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Re: Rational argument?

#9 Postby Gottard » October 21st, 2010, 2:33 pm

:pointlaugh: I suspect the same.
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

Marian
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Re: Rational argument?

#10 Postby Marian » October 21st, 2010, 6:08 pm

jaywhat wrote:Are you saying this thread is a farse
and the man is talking out of his arse?


All I am saying is I hear
a donkey braying :D
Transformative fire...

ludite
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Joined: April 4th, 2010, 8:06 pm

Re: Rational argument?

#11 Postby ludite » October 21st, 2010, 6:20 pm

Trying to see the point of these post as given me a headache. They are all about words and meanings words that we all understand and use all the time. Or maybe I am not educated to the same level as jj.It does remind me off some of the ramblings of the drunk proping up the bar in the pub.


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