Do you ever go to church?

[Alan C.]

Latest post of the previous page:

Welcome aboard mannchildr, would you care to go to "introductions" and tell us a bit about yourself?

[wizzy]

For those of you who would attend a christening, would you attend a confirmation? One of my old colleagues was offended because a friend wouldn't attend her comfirmation, but would attend a christening. I can see where she's coming from (in that the sentiment is very similar), but I'd be unlikely to attend a confirmation, but haven't yet given up attending christenings. I think that christenings are more of a social thing, somehow, what does everyone else think?

[Alan C.]

wizzy
but haven't yet given up attending christenings. I think that christenings are more of a social thing, somehow, what does everyone else think?

I've said more than once before, "I think Christenings are the worst of all the religious ceremonies" Some of the BS the parents and "godparents" are asked to repeat makes me nauseous.

[plonkee]

I have no problem going to church. I grew up in a Catholic family and will quite happily join in with Mass if I'm there with my family, mostly for the nostalgia factor but also to appease my old and very religious grandparents.

Regardless of which church I happen to be in, I will join in with hymns that I know simply because I like to sing. If there's a bit where you shake hands and say "Peace be with you", then I'll do so because I pretty much always do wish people peace.

All of this might be considered hypocritical, but it doesn't seem that way to me.

[wizzy]

wizzy
but haven't yet given up attending christenings. I think that christenings are more of a social thing, somehow, what does everyone else think?

I've said more than once before, "I think Christenings are the worst of all the religious ceremonies" Some of the BS the parents and "godparents" are asked to repeat makes me nauseous.

Oh, I agree that the principle of christenings is awful and the two I have attended as an adult have made me very uncomfortable, I hate all that nonsense the godparents have to say etc. Maybe I'm not clarifying very well, but despite that fact the concept behind a confirmation is very similar to a christening, prehaps slightly less awful as the teenager is more able to consent than a baby, I just would still feel ruder refusing to go to a christening than a confirmation, probably because I think that christenings are more of a social norm and seen as a social event.

[Alan C.]

wizzy
probably because I think that christenings are more of a social norm and seen as a social event.

I agree with you completely, but why can't a baby naming (without the religious bs) be an equal "social norm" without the religion?
Let's make them more social and get rid of the "religious" element.

Would you (anybody, not just you wizzzy) choose to be baptised/christened now? probably not, so how can anybody support this practice of making a child a member of a club,cult,sect, whatever, before the child is old enough to make up their own mind?

[Heurismus]

Would attend only for a ceremony.

I attended my aunt's funeral service where she lived in Hampshire this Tuesday.
It was her wish and I respect people's final wishes.
Her dedicatory service and final resting place will be in the grounds of Guildford Cathedral. Date to be announced.

The pastoral role I have never criticised, but the bullshit I will endure as a mark of love and respect whenever or wherever I can.

Just bury me under a tree and than have a barbecue as my dedicatory!

[Alan H]

Sorry to hear about your Aunt.

[Heurismus]

Just keep taking the aspirin...
Thank you Alan, she will be sorely missed as she really was a gentlewoman who worked her butt off for the sick and needy all her life. As a testament to her popularity; I have never seen so many people at a funeral/cremation ever other than state funerals. Anyway Mary, RIP

What gets me though is she died in Hong Kong after a long flight. Fit as a fiddle and medically highly trained she dies of two DVT's, one in each leg. What an effing bummer especially for her friends who were accompanying her to visit other friends and relatives in NZ.

[Robert Ede]

I only ever go to church for ceremonies. I will not pray, but there are a couple of hymns I can just about bear lip syncing to if I am forced. Given the choice I would never set foot inside one.

I simply witness events as an observer. I have turned down offers to be a god parent and best man at religious weddings, and I hope I never have to have a discussion with my daughter about walking down the aisle.

Unlike Dawkins I am not a cultural christian.

[Alan H]

I have turned down offers to be a god parent

That reminds me that I'm 'god'-parent to my first wife's nephew (a Catholic ceremony). I haven't seen him for 10 years. Can you be un-god-parented? The Catholic church will have a ceremony for it.

[Alan C.]

Alan H
The Catholic church will have a ceremony for it.

I believe there's an indulgance you can purchase, just send your cheque for €5,000 made payable to the Poop

[MHB]

Having only recently "given in and given up" my religious beliefs I'm in a funny position. My wife is still a Christian (alright, Episcopalian) and my three daughters believe that all I think about is what they call "God stuff" and I've always been active in the church and right now am still active as a choir singer and dolcimer/piano player. I haven't felt the need to run screaming from the services, though intellectually for a long time - perhaps longer than I thought, I just don't follow much of what's going on. I do however enjoy the social relationships and do find a few ways to make a point or two for what I'm now calling "our side". I suspect I'll keep going for a awhile.

Does that seem weird?

[wizzy]

I have turned down offers to be a god parent

That reminds me that I'm 'god'-parent to my first wife's nephew (a Catholic ceremony). I haven't seen him for 10 years. Can you be un-god-parented? The Catholic church will have a ceremony for it.

I probably haven't seen my god-father for 20 years. I see my godmothers as they are also aunts, but my catholic aunt still refers to herself as my godmother as well, she is god-mother to several other people, who she refers to as my god-cousins or god-sisters or something (I don't pay much attention)!

[mdean]

Living in a time when the grasp of religion has loosened only relatively recently churches are the repositories of much human achievement. As far as I am concerned a Bach mass is great music that just happens to be religious is setting. The architectural masterpieces of the medieval cathedrals show what is possible by human endeavor and creativity. I think a self imposed ban on these things would leave me a poorer person.

Having said that, an ipod helps when the sermon starts, or I tend to get the giggles.

[Fran]

Living in a time when the grasp of religion has loosened only relatively recently churches are the repositories of much human achievement. As far as I am concerned a Bach mass is great music that just happens to be religious is setting. The architectural masterpieces of the medieval cathedrals show what is possible by human endeavor and creativity. I think a self imposed ban on these things would leave me a poorer person.

yes I agree. Churches are great for concerts, and there's such a wealth of music from the last 800 years or so. So what if it is religious; luckily you usually can't understand the words, and as someone (I think R Dawkins) said, before Darwin, believing in God was quite a rational choice, unless you were a super brain like David Hume or someone.

Carol services I find more and more problematical as the years go by. As a useful choral singer (alto) I have been asked to fill in at such things quite a lot over the years, & I used to be happy to oblige, taking a good book for the talkie bits. But now I find the whole thing quite offensive, I think because it's so absurdly privileged (eg it's just not polite to say what rubbish) with the result that it's drifting back; think faith academies etc. Dangerous.

[Fran]

I just would still feel ruder refusing to go to a christening than a confirmation, probably because I think that christenings are more of a social norm and seen as a social event.

I haven't been asked to a Christening for some time; these things go in waves, don't they; first all your friends are breeding, then their children, and so on! I'm just so thankful my own son & daughter-in-law haven't suggested it for my grandchildren, & I don't think are likely too, because no, I really don't think I could face another. Think what's being said, that you have to fight the world, the flesh & the devil; the world & the flesh are all we've got, & as for the devil!!!
I think you're right that it is a social phenomenon, but as such there must be a humanist alternative; these days it's quite OK to have your white dress, veil, cake etc for a non-church wedding, but I don't know that humanist naming ceremonies have been given as much thought or glamour; perhaps it's something we ought to be addressing?

[Occam]

Other than for a few weddings of friends, I hadn't been in a church since I was eight years old (1938). In 1968 my then 14 year old daughter said she wanted to join LRY.
"What's LRY?"
"Liberal Religious Youth." My wife and I looked at each other as if to say, 'Where did we go wrong???'
"Why?"
"My boyfriend belongs."
"Where?"
"The Unitarian Church."
"We'll check it out, first." I knew nothing about this church. I wore a suit, white shirt and tie, and was prepared to make believe I was praying when they knelt.
People were in jeans, shorts, tee shirts, etc. We went in and sat down. The minister gave a very nice talk from a strongly liberal viewpoint on some political issues of the day. No praying. They sang a few folk songs. Then there was a question period. One guy with a large gray beard stood up and called the minister a tool of the capitalists. A young woman got up and called the minister a male chauvinist pig.

I decided I had to come back just to see if this was normal. In the next few weeks I happened to talk with the minister and found that he was a more militant atheist than I was. We joined the church, and there was never a mention of prayer, soul, god, etc. I asked why they called it a church, and they explained that it was necessary so they could get tax free status.

In 1975 I founded a humanist forum the discussed a wide variety of philosophical, social, ethical, etc. topics and met before the normal service. When the minister retired they got a series of liberal theists as ministers so I only went to the Humanist Forum every other week.

I finally got tired of running it, and it continued to limp along for a while.

Occam

[Aphra]

I don't regard the Unitarian Meeting House in Ipswich as a "church", any more than I regard the Quaker Meeting House we use in Colchester as a "church". I've used the Ipswich meeting house for Humanist ceremonies, most recently just a couple of weeks ago, when we had a musical memorial ceremony for a member of our group who came from a very musical family. The minister, Cliff, came to open the building, helped set things up and stayed for the ceremony, as he's done before. I've known him a few years now, through Suffolk Inter-Faith Resource.

The local UN Association has held its annual inter-faith UN Day celebration day in the Unitarian Meeting House for several years, which has been neutral, in religious terms - no religious hymns or prayers. I bought a copy of the Unitarians' hymn book a few years ago, as it includes songs that aren't religious but are set to traditional hymn tunes. I've used it for Humanist funerals.

The meeting house is an attractive old building without any religious symbolism. It has a gallery, box pews, and a grand piano. From the point of view of a celebrant, it holds several hundred people, more than the crematorium can accommodate. They don't have any problem with more unusual ceremonies, and have had affirmation ceremonies for gay and lesbian couple there, besides the ones I've done.

When Cliff went on an international tour of Unitarian groups in an honorary role he visited the States a few years back, and was keen to tell me about the link between Unitarianism and Humanism there. You can read more on the Huumanists website. I was also made aware of this link through the Darwin Fish website, where they sell Humanist/Unitarian goodies.

Having said all that, the Unitarians I've met are theists, so we differ in our beliefs. I'm not aware of the sort of confrontations referred to in the previous post.

[Occam]

In the first half of the twentieth century about 60% of U.S. Unitarians were atheists or agnostics. Then they merged with the Universalists, who were all liberal theists. Since then the Universalists have taken over the administation and the whole denomination has become much more theistic. However, I agree that the Unitarians from England whom I've met were usually theists.

Occam

[Sillycat]

I go when I have to. If there is a wedding, christening, funeral, etc., I'll go, it's not my beliefs that are important at these times, but the beliefs of those actually taking part in the ceremony. I think it's a little petty not to go just because I personally don't believe, I would expect my friends and family to respect my beliefs and so I have to respect theirs also.

I do find it a little hypocritical when people who never attend church in their everyday lives decide that it's important to hold religious ceremonies in churches rather than civil ceremonies, but I still go to them because it's not my place to decide what other people should do or believe.

My Father-in-law has very hypocritical views on religion, he never goes to church except for ceremonies, yet he feels it unfair of me that I have not yet had my daughter christened. I explained that I wanted to give her the chance to decide for herself and that if she decided to become a christian later in life I would support her, but that I felt it was not up to me to decide her future. As you can imagine it didn't go down very well with him, he is of the opinion that being Christened is like insurance, something you do just in case God really does exist.

I come across people like this everyday, people who insist they are believers and yet don't seem to have any principles or devotion to their god of choice. It seems to me that most are driven by tradition rather than faith.