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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 151
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 11:52 pm

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#41 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 17th, 2019, 7:20 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Compassionist wrote:No evolution is not the cause of extinction. Failure to adapt to change is the cause for extinction. All individual members of a species eventually fail to adapt and consequently die. Most species are already extinct (as much as 99.99% of all species to ever evolve on Earth are already extinct because life is so harsh and unfair). Unless we wise up, we will also become extinct. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1lnxUXWGgE
I agree that we are jeopardising our species, even to the next generation.

Who opened the window and let honor and duty out?

Shame on us all.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
Posts: 3446
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#42 Post by Compassionist » July 17th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote:No evolution is not the cause of extinction. Failure to adapt to change is the cause for extinction. All individual members of a species eventually fail to adapt and consequently die. Most species are already extinct (as much as 99.99% of all species to ever evolve on Earth are already extinct because life is so harsh and unfair). Unless we wise up, we will also become extinct. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1lnxUXWGgE
I agree that we are jeopardising our species, even to the next generation.

Who opened the window and let honor and duty out?

Shame on us all.

Regards
DL
We are not culpable. We are deterministic prisoners of causality doomed to suffer and die. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCfAeD8iWE

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Gnostic Bishop
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Joined: October 20th, 2014, 11:52 pm

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#43 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 18th, 2019, 2:22 am

Compassionist wrote:[
We are not culpable. We are deterministic prisoners of causality doomed to suffer and die. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCfAeD8iWE
Absolutely; to a point governed by nature and physics.

We still have a free will as tests based on our ability to give it up show.

I E. If I asked you to begin a reply as I asked. IOWs, censor you.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
Posts: 3446
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#44 Post by Compassionist » July 18th, 2019, 10:15 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote:[
We are not culpable. We are deterministic prisoners of causality doomed to suffer and die. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCfAeD8iWE
Absolutely; to a point governed by nature and physics.

We still have a free will as tests based on our ability to give it up show.

I E. If I asked you to begin a reply as I asked. IOWs, censor you.

Regards
DL
What tests? Please send me a link as I want to know more. As far as I know, all our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. We are not and cannot be free from causality. We do what we find rewarding and refrain from doing what we find punishing. For example, I am a vegan because I find it rewarding to know that I have refrained from causing suffering and death to sentient biological organisms. Others are omnivores because they find it rewarding to eat meat and they don't care about the suffering and death of sentient biological organisms. Different people find different things rewarding or punishing because they have different genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:

1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, health problems, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence, indifference and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.

Things I have done, still do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Have flashbacks
20. Have intrusive thoughts
21. Have delusions
22. Have hallucinations
23. Die

So, given the above two lists, how am I free? I am clearly not free. My will is not free, it is constrained by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I am a prisoner causality from conception to death, as are you and every living thing. We are all doomed to be conceived, to suffer and to die.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#45 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 22nd, 2019, 5:08 pm

Compassionist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote:[
We are not culpable. We are deterministic prisoners of causality doomed to suffer and die. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jCfAeD8iWE
Absolutely; to a point governed by nature and physics.

We still have a free will as tests based on our ability to give it up show.

I E. If I asked you to begin a reply as I asked. IOWs, censor you.

Regards
DL
What tests? Please send me a link as I want to know more. As far as I know, all our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. We are not and cannot be free from causality. We do what we find rewarding and refrain from doing what we find punishing. For example, I am a vegan because I find it rewarding to know that I have refrained from causing suffering and death to sentient biological organisms. Others are omnivores because they find it rewarding to eat meat and they don't care about the suffering and death of sentient biological organisms. Different people find different things rewarding or punishing because they have different genes, environments, nutrients and experiences.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:

1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, health problems, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence, indifference and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.

Things I have done, still do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Have flashbacks
20. Have intrusive thoughts
21. Have delusions
22. Have hallucinations
23. Die

So, given the above two lists, how am I free? I am clearly not free. My will is not free, it is constrained by my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. I am a prisoner causality from conception to death, as are you and every living thing. We are all doomed to be conceived, to suffer and to die.
I agree that our free will is limited by nature and physics. That is an obvious limit.

As to the test, I can give it right here with the standards I set above.

Give up your free will to begin your reply to this with an "I".

I will wait to see how you begin your reply to see if you get it.

You will not that either regardless of how you reply, it is your free will that is doing it.
That is why the results of the test is irrefutable.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#46 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2019, 12:05 am

Our sense of self is an illusion. There is no permanent entity, only an impermanent ever changing construct which behaves entirely according to deterministic causality. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#47 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2019, 4:46 pm

Compassionist wrote:Our sense of self is an illusion. There is no permanent entity, only an impermanent ever changing construct which behaves entirely according to deterministic causality. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU
Please read The Self Illusion: Why There is No 'You' Inside Your Head. Thank you.

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Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 151
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#48 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 24th, 2019, 6:22 pm

Compassionist wrote:Our sense of self is an illusion. There is no permanent entity, only an impermanent ever changing construct which behaves entirely according to deterministic causality. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU
Of course we are restricted by nature and physics. Only a fool would think otherwise.

That is what my little test proves beyond any doubt.

Regards
DL

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#49 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 24th, 2019, 6:24 pm

Compassionist wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Our sense of self is an illusion. There is no permanent entity, only an impermanent ever changing construct which behaves entirely according to deterministic causality. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU
Please read The Self Illusion: Why There is No 'You' Inside Your Head. Thank you.
You have painted yourself into a corner.

If the you you speak of did not put the reply I answered to, then who wrote it?

Have you forgotten the test in post 45?
Care to try it?

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#50 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Our sense of self is an illusion. There is no permanent entity, only an impermanent ever changing construct which behaves entirely according to deterministic causality. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU
Please read The Self Illusion: Why There is No 'You' Inside Your Head. Thank you.
You have painted yourself into a corner.

If the you you speak of did not put the reply I answered to, then who wrote it?

Have you forgotten the test in post 45?
Care to try it?

Regards
DL
Your test in post 45 makes no sense because my sense of self is an illusion. I am not a permanent entity. The brain in my skull creates the illusion of a sentient pilot behind my eyes and between my ears but there is no such entity. You should read the above book. Also, please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g Thank you.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#51 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 24th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Compassionist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote: Please read The Self Illusion: Why There is No 'You' Inside Your Head. Thank you.
You have painted yourself into a corner.

If the you you speak of did not put the reply I answered to, then who wrote it?

Have you forgotten the test in post 45?
Care to try it?

Regards
DL
Your test in post 45 makes no sense because my sense of self is an illusion. I am not a permanent entity. The brain in my skull creates the illusion of a sentient pilot behind my eyes and between my ears but there is no such entity. You should read the above book. Also, please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g Thank you.
The test makes all the sense in the world and shows irrefutably that you have a free will.

If you did not put the reply, who did? Who is your imaginary friend?

If you are not a permanent entity how can you pop back and forth into being?

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#52 Post by Compassionist » July 24th, 2019, 10:59 pm

I found the book to be very revealing about our sense of self. I used to think that I am an immortal soul - a permanent entity with a free will and that other humans and other sentient organisms are also the same. In reality, we are all impermanent processes lacking free will. We are faulty mechanisms rather than guilty souls. It made me realise that we are not sinners or saints, we are deterministic processes which are prisoners of causality. My sense of self has changed a lot over the years. I am nothing like the child I was when I was four. Back then I was really ignorant and gullible and believed everything my parents told me. Now, I disagree with my parents about the very nature of reality. I could not have typed this post when I was four years old. I am obviously not permanent, I am an impermanent and evolving process, not a permanent entity. We evolved naturally in a reality which is not fine-tuned for life because life is incredibly rare. If reality was fine-tuned by God for life, life would be everywhere. Life is in fact so rare that we have not found any life on any other solar system despite there being many trillions of stars and planets. We shouldn't take things personally because nothing is personal - even our sense of self is an illusion created by impermanent processes.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#53 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 25th, 2019, 1:08 pm

Compassionist wrote:I found the book to be very revealing about our sense of self. I used to think that I am an immortal soul - a permanent entity with a free will and that other humans and other sentient organisms are also the same. In reality, we are all impermanent processes lacking free will. We are faulty mechanisms rather than guilty souls. It made me realise that we are not sinners or saints, we are deterministic processes which are prisoners of causality. My sense of self has changed a lot over the years. I am nothing like the child I was when I was four. Back then I was really ignorant and gullible and believed everything my parents told me. Now, I disagree with my parents about the very nature of reality. I could not have typed this post when I was four years old. I am obviously not permanent, I am an impermanent and evolving process, not a permanent entity. We evolved naturally in a reality which is not fine-tuned for life because life is incredibly rare. If reality was fine-tuned by God for life, life would be everywhere. Life is in fact so rare that we have not found any life on any other solar system despite there being many trillions of stars and planets. We shouldn't take things personally because nothing is personal - even our sense of self is an illusion created by impermanent processes.
"Now, I disagree"

Oh my. You chose to disagree. You made my case.

I do understand that you change moment by moment, but you added to you while still being you.

If you are to take physics to a literal view as you have done to deny that you are you, then do that with the idea that we are mostly made of space and try walking through a wall.
Analogically, that is what you are doing with your notion of no free will.

Fact is, you can give up your will to another as my little test shows, but if that does not convince you, know that you cannot convince me either.

You seem to dislike that you cannot exercise a will to fly or something and have decided that because you cannot do the un-natural you do not really exist.

We have no discussion unless you can convince me that I do not exist either.

I think you know this, if a you is reading this, and that is why my test goes untried.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#54 Post by Compassionist » July 25th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Yes, I have a sense of self. Yes, I make choices but my choices are not free from constraints. My choices are inevitable choices which are determined by variables. I am not free. I am a prisoner of causality. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am merely sharing my thoughts about the nature of reality, the nature of the self and the nature of my will. I don't require anything from you. I certainly am not asking anyone to agree with me about anything. In a very real sense, you and I are not permanent entities. We are impermanent processes living out deterministically inevitable lives. I expect all sentient biological organisms to suffer and die - only suffering and death are guaranteed. Every day I wake up and I expect to suffer and I expect to die. If I could have prevented my conception, I would have done so a lot time ago. I can't kill myself because that would cause harm to my family and friends. I have faith that I am the omnibenevolent omnisaviour of the omniverse and all living things in the infinite number of universes of the omniverse go to my omnibenevolent heaven after they die because of my unconditional faith, hope and love. Am I right or am I just deluding myself? How can I know for sure without dying? Let's hope that we all meet in my omnibenevolent heaven for all after we die!

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#55 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 25th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Compassionist wrote:Yes, I have a sense of self. Yes, I make choices but my choices are not free from constraints. My choices are inevitable choices which are determined by variables. I am not free. I am a prisoner of causality. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am merely sharing my thoughts about the nature of reality, the nature of the self and the nature of my will. I don't require anything from you. I certainly am not asking anyone to agree with me about anything. In a very real sense, you and I are not permanent entities. We are impermanent processes living out deterministically inevitable lives. I expect all sentient biological organisms to suffer and die - only suffering and death are guaranteed. Every day I wake up and I expect to suffer and I expect to die. If I could have prevented my conception, I would have done so a lot time ago. I can't kill myself because that would cause harm to my family and friends. I have faith that I am the omnibenevolent omnisaviour of the omniverse and all living things in the infinite number of universes of the omniverse go to my omnibenevolent heaven after they die because of my unconditional faith, hope and love. Am I right or am I just deluding myself? How can I know for sure without dying? Let's hope that we all meet in my omnibenevolent heaven for all after we die!
"determined by variables."

From whose options you choose. Those are free willed choices.

Don't feel you do not have a free will to exercise just because you feel bad or constrained about not being able to fly.

Regards
DL

Compassionist
Posts: 3446
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#56 Post by Compassionist » July 25th, 2019, 8:39 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Compassionist wrote:Yes, I have a sense of self. Yes, I make choices but my choices are not free from constraints. My choices are inevitable choices which are determined by variables. I am not free. I am a prisoner of causality. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am merely sharing my thoughts about the nature of reality, the nature of the self and the nature of my will. I don't require anything from you. I certainly am not asking anyone to agree with me about anything. In a very real sense, you and I are not permanent entities. We are impermanent processes living out deterministically inevitable lives. I expect all sentient biological organisms to suffer and die - only suffering and death are guaranteed. Every day I wake up and I expect to suffer and I expect to die. If I could have prevented my conception, I would have done so a lot time ago. I can't kill myself because that would cause harm to my family and friends. I have faith that I am the omnibenevolent omnisaviour of the omniverse and all living things in the infinite number of universes of the omniverse go to my omnibenevolent heaven after they die because of my unconditional faith, hope and love. Am I right or am I just deluding myself? How can I know for sure without dying? Let's hope that we all meet in my omnibenevolent heaven for all after we die!
"determined by variables."

From whose options you choose. Those are free willed choices.

Don't feel you do not have a free will to exercise just because you feel bad or constrained about not being able to fly.

Regards
DL
When did I say that I feel bad for not being able to fly? I don't even want to fly, never mind feeling bad for not being able to fly. I suffer from chronic pain. I have been in continuous pain since 21 August 2008. Since there is no cure, I expect to be in pain until I die. I have been suffering from Bipolar Affective Disorder for 22 years. I also have nightmares every night, flashbacks and intrusive thoughts every day due to many traumatic experiences since early childhood. Again, no cure. I struggle every day due to my physical and mental health problems. Did you watch the video of Sam Harris on Free Will on Youtube? If you haven't, please view it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g Thank you.

Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:

1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, health problems, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence, indifference and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.

Things I have done, still do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13.Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Have flashbacks
20. Have intrusive thoughts
21. Have delusions
22. Have hallucinations
23. Die

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Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 151
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 11:52 pm

Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

#57 Post by Gnostic Bishop » July 25th, 2019, 9:03 pm

You just want to fly. Do so on this issue.

Regards
DL

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