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Eternal torment in Hell

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Alan H
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#41 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 1:01 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:What do you think quantum physics is?
The ground of Being!
What do you think that answer explains?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#42 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 1:03 pm

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:What do you think quantum physics is?
The ground of Being!
What do you think that answer explains?
It is not an explanation, but rather the basis of any possible explanation.

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Alan H
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#43 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 1:12 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:The ground of Being!
What do you think that answer explains?
It is not an explanation, but rather the basis of any possible explanation.
You said:
kismet wrote:Quantum Physics, ACIM, and Advaita Vedanta all agree.
Before I can agree or disagree with your assertion is true, I need to know what you understand by quantum physics. Can you provide the meaning you ascribe to it?


Edited to sort out the utter mess I made of the quotes!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#44 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 1:16 pm

Alan H wrote:Before I can agree or disagree with your assertion is true, I need to know what you understand by quantum physics. Can you provide the meaning you ascribe to it?
QP says, or rather implies, that this world is a projection. That it is observer-dependent and has no separate existence. Advaita teaches the same. So does ACIM.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#45 Post by Tetenterre » July 10th, 2012, 2:05 pm

Kismet wrote:Science is at home with A Course in Miracles in the form of Quantum Physics.
What? I really don't see how anyone who has (a) even merely browsed the book and (b) has even a basic understanding of quantum physics (it doesn't need to be capitalised) could make such a statement and expect it to be taken seriously.
Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:Before I can agree or disagree with your assertion is true, I need to know what you understand by quantum physics. Can you provide the meaning you ascribe to it?
QP says, or rather implies, that this world is a projection. That it is observer-dependent and has no separate existence. Advaita teaches the same. So does ACIM.
That is hardly an understanding of quantum physics; it is a layman's interpretation of an apparent consequence of it; not the same thing at all.
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#46 Post by Kismet » July 11th, 2012, 12:13 am

Tetenterre wrote:That is hardly an understanding of quantum physics; it is a layman's interpretation of an apparent consequence of it; not the same thing at all.
Precisely. Therefore, all three of these things may be rendered at home and consistent with one another. Of course, you may disagree if you are a strict foundationalist.

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Dave B
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#47 Post by Dave B » July 11th, 2012, 8:56 am

Pardon?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#48 Post by Kismet » July 13th, 2012, 10:10 pm

Dave B wrote:Pardon?
Do all propositions need to be justified prior to us making coherent connections amongst them?

Compassionist
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#49 Post by Compassionist » July 14th, 2012, 8:35 pm

Compassionist wrote:
Compassionist wrote:How much time passed between the Fall of Adam and Eve and the coming of Jesus? Why didn't God send Jesus immediately after the Fall? Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Does that mean everyone before Jesus came went to Hell for eternity? Do all non-Christians go to Hell for eternity?

I asked the above questions to the people who run Got Questions. I will let you know once they reply.
Got Questions replied:
Thanks for your question. It's a good one, and lots of people want to know. I'll explain as best I can.

First, according to Biblical chronology, about 4,000 years passed between the Fall and the coming of the Messiah. So why didnt Jesus come directly after the Fall? well, who would he save except for Adam and Eve? Remember, God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do before he created them. Therefore, it was his plan to send Jesus before the foundations of the world or time itself. That plan would be that someone would come that would save mankind from the sin nature he inherited from Adam. We see this in Genesis 3:15 when God curses the Serpent:
"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This is the first mention of the Messiah in scripture.

Another part of God's plan was to establish his people, the Hebrews, also known as the Jews. He did this through a man named Abram who was living with his family in Ur of the Chaldeans. It is through the seed of Abram, later to be called Abraham, that the Messiah would come and all the nations of the world would be blessed. All these things require time. Since God is eternal, time is of no concern for him. One thing we know from scripture, God does not get in a hurry. When he is ready to move with his perfect plan, he will. He also established what we know as the Levitical Law with its sacrificial system. Paul says the Law was a school master, used to teach men what sin was. And scripture says that God wants no one to perish. Yes, he could have saved every one by waving his hand. But, God gave Adam free will to choose, and he gave the same thing to us. God did not make us robots programmed to love him by force. God wants us to love him for who he is. In order to do that, God used time to bring as many people to him as possible. The same is true for Jesus' return. When God is ready, He will move, and Jesus will return. Count on that. It may be another 2000 years, or it may be in the next heart beat. But he will come.

As to the quote from Jesus, John 14:6, he is absolutely serious about that. Remember, the Old Testament Saints were saved by faith. Hebrews chapter 11 de als with this in detail. So, God gave them the Law. He showed them what sin was. He also showed them how to atone for that sin, which was through the shedding of blood. The first blood sacrifice occurred in Genesis 3 when God made animal cloaks for Adam and Eve. This was done to show man that someone who was innocent and blameless would come and shed his blood to redeem mankind. The animal sacrifices were a direct pointer to Jesus. Hebrews says without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sin.

Now, back to faith. Hebrews 11 says that the Old Testament Saints were justified, that is, made blameless before God by putting their faith in what the coming Messiah would do. They believed that God was going to do something great, although, as Hebrews says, they did not partake of the promise, nor did they see it, only that they believed God. So the Old Testament Saints when they died, went to a place called Abraham's Bosom, also known as Paradise (Luke 16:22). There they were secure in the care of God. Some scholars say that Abraham's Bosom was apart from God because the sin debt had not been paid, so they could not come into the presence of God. Some scholars say that Abraham's Bosom was Heaven, in the presence of God, since the OT Saints were justified through what Jesus would do. There is Biblical support for both of these. But whatever the case, the OT Saints were in the care of God because of their faith. When Christ was resurrected, Abraham's Bosom was closed and the OT Saints as well as new believers went directly to be with God upon death (Ephesians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 5:8). So we see that the OT saints were saved the same we are today - through faith.

Let me be plain about something. Christian is a name that was first used at Antioch (Acts 11:26). This was a term of derision, much like the term "Christers" is used to day. So "Christian" is a name. You can't get to Heaven by calling yourself something. You get there by putting faith in trust in what Jesus has already done. So the bottom line is, any person, Jew, Gentile, male or female, that dies apart from Jesus, without his sins being covered by the blood and forgiven, will NOT get into Heaven. Jesus was plain about that with Nicodemus (John Chapter 3). God requires a payment for sin. We saw that with Adam and Eve and with the Levitical Law. God made a way for the payment of this sin through the death and resurrection of his Son. God demanded a payment and paid the debt himself. Paul says the righteousness of the sinless Jesus is given to us through faith (Romans4:24). So whenever a person, Jew, Gentile, male or female, slave or free, accepts the ransom Jesus paid, then he is given the same righteousness as Jesus. Or, we can die apart from Jesus and pay for our sins ourselves for eternity in the Lake of Fire. Remember, Hell is a holding tank for those awaiting final Judgment at the Great White Throne, when scripture says even Hell will be cast there (Revelation 20:13,14).

So remember, anybody can carry a name. But we know that an encounter with the Living Christ will transform lives and bear fruit (Galatians 5:22).

Hope this helps.
In response to the above I said:
Thank you for your quick reply. You said 4000 years passed between the Fall and the coming of Jesus. How does this relate to the age of the universe which is 13.7 billion years? Isn't sacrificing animals a superstitious and irrational practice by ignorant people to please an alleged God who demands such absurd and unjust practice?
I still haven't received any response from the Christians of the Got Questions website, so, I asked them more questions today:

The Bible says that people die because Adam and Eve sinned and all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. In that case, why do other living things (e.g. plants, animals, fish, birds, bacteria, virus, etc.) die when they are not descendants of Adam and Eve? People are supposed to be saved from their sins by accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. If Jesus truly saves people from sin, why do these allegedly saved people still die given that death is claimed to be a consequence of sin? Why did God sacrifice animal to clothe Adam and Eve instead of using fabrics made by spinning cotton? Was it not unjust and cruel of God to kill the animals in order to use their skin to clothe Adam and Eve? Why weren't the fig leaves used by Adam and Eve enough for modesty? Vegans have a much more ethical lifestyle compared to meat-eaters and animal skin users. Why didn't God promote veganism? Why did God demand the deaths of innocent animals as sacrifice for sin? Isn't such demand cruel, absurd and unjust? If God created all living things why do living things eat other living things? And why are there parasites which cause terrible suffering? Is God sadistic? Why did he punish Eve and all her descendants with the pain of child birth?

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animist
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#50 Post by animist » July 14th, 2012, 9:31 pm

Compassionist wrote: The Bible says that people die because Adam and Eve sinned and all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. In that case, why do other living things (e.g. plants, animals, fish, birds, bacteria, virus, etc.) die when they are not descendants of Adam and Eve? People are supposed to be saved from their sins by accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. If Jesus truly saves people from sin, why do these allegedly saved people still die given that death is claimed to be a consequence of sin? Why did God sacrifice animal to clothe Adam and Eve instead of using fabrics made by spinning cotton? Was it not unjust and cruel of God to kill the animals in order to use their skin to clothe Adam and Eve? Why weren't the fig leaves used by Adam and Eve enough for modesty? Vegans have a much more ethical lifestyle compared to meat-eaters and animal skin users. Why didn't God promote veganism? Why did God demand the deaths of innocent animals as sacrifice for sin? Isn't such demand cruel, absurd and unjust? If God created all living things why do living things eat other living things? And why are there parasites which cause terrible suffering? Is God sadistic? Why did he punish Eve and all her descendants with the pain of child birth?
great questions, but I doubt you will get much of an answer. Kismet, what is your answer?

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Alan C.
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#51 Post by Alan C. » July 14th, 2012, 10:36 pm

Compo
The Bible says that people die because Adam and Eve sinned and all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve.
Neither the Archbish of Canterbury nor the Pope believe that, why would anybody else?
In that case, why do other living things (e.g. plants, animals, fish, birds, bacteria, virus, etc.) die when they are not descendants of Adam and Eve?
We all (animals and plants) Share DNA, we are all predisposed to die and make way for the next generation.
People are supposed to be saved from their sins by accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. If Jesus truly saves people from sin, why do these allegedly saved people still die given that death is claimed to be a consequence of sin?
Where did you get that idea from? Everything dies, sin or no sin.
Why did God sacrifice animal to clothe Adam and Eve instead of using fabrics made by spinning cotton? Was it not unjust and cruel of God to kill the animals in order to use their skin to clothe Adam and Eve?
Have I missed something in the bible?
Why did God demand the deaths of innocent animals as sacrifice for sin? Isn't such demand cruel, absurd and unjust?
She didn't.
Is God sadistic? Why did he punish Eve and all her descendants with the pain of child birth?
Big brain= big head= painful childbirth, nowt to do with god.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#52 Post by Kismet » July 14th, 2012, 10:50 pm

animist wrote:
Compassionist wrote: The Bible says that people die because Adam and Eve sinned and all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. In that case, why do other living things (e.g. plants, animals, fish, birds, bacteria, virus, etc.) die when they are not descendants of Adam and Eve? People are supposed to be saved from their sins by accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. If Jesus truly saves people from sin, why do these allegedly saved people still die given that death is claimed to be a consequence of sin? Why did God sacrifice animal to clothe Adam and Eve instead of using fabrics made by spinning cotton? Was it not unjust and cruel of God to kill the animals in order to use their skin to clothe Adam and Eve? Why weren't the fig leaves used by Adam and Eve enough for modesty? Vegans have a much more ethical lifestyle compared to meat-eaters and animal skin users. Why didn't God promote veganism? Why did God demand the deaths of innocent animals as sacrifice for sin? Isn't such demand cruel, absurd and unjust? If God created all living things why do living things eat other living things? And why are there parasites which cause terrible suffering? Is God sadistic? Why did he punish Eve and all her descendants with the pain of child birth?
great questions, but I doubt you will get much of an answer. Kismet, what is your answer?
Suffering comes about through living in a material world of opposites. God is actually not responsible for creating the material cosmos; we are, in a pre-existent state.

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animist
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#53 Post by animist » July 14th, 2012, 10:51 pm

Kismet wrote:
animist wrote:
Compassionist wrote: The Bible says that people die because Adam and Eve sinned and all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. In that case, why do other living things (e.g. plants, animals, fish, birds, bacteria, virus, etc.) die when they are not descendants of Adam and Eve? People are supposed to be saved from their sins by accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. If Jesus truly saves people from sin, why do these allegedly saved people still die given that death is claimed to be a consequence of sin? Why did God sacrifice animal to clothe Adam and Eve instead of using fabrics made by spinning cotton? Was it not unjust and cruel of God to kill the animals in order to use their skin to clothe Adam and Eve? Why weren't the fig leaves used by Adam and Eve enough for modesty? Vegans have a much more ethical lifestyle compared to meat-eaters and animal skin users. Why didn't God promote veganism? Why did God demand the deaths of innocent animals as sacrifice for sin? Isn't such demand cruel, absurd and unjust? If God created all living things why do living things eat other living things? And why are there parasites which cause terrible suffering? Is God sadistic? Why did he punish Eve and all her descendants with the pain of child birth?
great questions, but I doubt you will get much of an answer. Kismet, what is your answer?
Suffering comes about through living in a material world of opposites. God is actually not responsible for creating the material cosmos; we are, in a pre-existent state.
oh, so you are not a Xian after all? A scientologist maybe?

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#54 Post by Kismet » July 14th, 2012, 10:53 pm

Advaita Vedanta, for now, I'd say. Though I have dabbled in Krishnaism.

Christianity and all the rest of the religions have a very similar mystical core however. It is Being.

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Alan H
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#55 Post by Alan H » July 14th, 2012, 11:18 pm

Kismet wrote:Advaita Vedanta, for now, I'd say. Though I have dabbled in Krishnaism.

Christianity and all the rest of the religions have a very similar mystical core however. It is Being.
It is Human.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#56 Post by Kismet » July 14th, 2012, 11:48 pm

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:Advaita Vedanta, for now, I'd say. Though I have dabbled in Krishnaism.

Christianity and all the rest of the religions have a very similar mystical core however. It is Being.
It is Human.
More question begging!

Boy is this forum getting boring.

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Alan H
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#57 Post by Alan H » July 14th, 2012, 11:57 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:Advaita Vedanta, for now, I'd say. Though I have dabbled in Krishnaism.

Christianity and all the rest of the religions have a very similar mystical core however. It is Being.
It is Human.
More question begging!

Boy is this forum getting boring.
You started it! :wink:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#58 Post by Kismet » July 15th, 2012, 12:19 am

Alan H wrote:You started it! :wink:
No..., it was boring before I got here....

And now that my golden influence is steadily waning... it is receding back... hehe.

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Alan C.
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#59 Post by Alan C. » July 15th, 2012, 8:03 pm

No..., it was boring before I got here....
You've read all 127452 posts? Impressive. :D
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Dave B
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#60 Post by Dave B » July 15th, 2012, 8:15 pm

Kismet, its it possibly getting boring because your mindset is so narrow and we are not talking about those things you love and which put you at the centre of attention?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Kismet
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Re: Eternal torment in Hell

#61 Post by Kismet » July 15th, 2012, 8:39 pm

Dave B wrote:Kismet, its it possibly getting boring because your mindset is so narrow and we are not talking about those things you love and which put you at the centre of attention?
No, rather it has been boring for aeons because this forum's mindset is so narrow (narrowed down to metaphysical naturalism) and it is because you ONLY talk about those things you love and put your own HUMANITY (i.e, yourself) in the center.,,,, that things are BORING BORING and,, once more, BORING! :wink:

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