The issue of Exodus (and the Tenth Plague)

[dman]

Sorry if the title (or the purpose) of this thread is a little bit daft but...

I've always had a big problem with the Book of Exodus - and more specifically, the Tenth Plague. In fact, I am a first born child myself, and when I was very young, I wondered if I would have died if I had lived in Egypt...

After that, I started to wonder if the Bible had conflicting messages, and that's when I stopped believing in a god. I saw that the christian god had no regard for the lives of innocent women and children - being a god, he/it could have simply teleported Moses and the Isralites out of Egypt; this would have resulted in no loss of life on either side.

And that's when I thought.... if God tells Moses that he is going to send 'the angels of death' (God tells Moses that he is going to murder people, and he gives a motive ), then why does he/it make murder a crime under the Ten Commandments after carrying it out?

This, to me, proved that the Bible was written by man, as the various texts contradict each other.

Anyway, sorry for the lecture. I've often had a hard time putting my argument on Exodus towards Evangelicals - any ideas on how to make what I've said a bit less complicated?

[thundril]

The Passover is a celebration of the act known to modern international conventions as 'Collective Punishment'.
The same rules apparently didn't apply in them days.

[Nick]

I think you put the case very well, dman, and very personally too.


I always wonder about the sacrifice of Isaac. Time to call social services, wouldn't you say?

[Griblet]

I've often had a hard time putting my argument on Exodus towards Evangelicals - any ideas on how to make what I've said a bit less complicated?

dman, the Bible is riddled with contradictions but I'm afraid to say that citing them never gets you far with evangelicals. They have a pat answer for every one.

And that's when I thought.... if God tells Moses that he is going to send 'the angels of death' (God tells Moses that he is going to murder people, and he gives a motive ), then why does he/it make murder a crime under the Ten Commandments after carrying it out?

I fear they'll just say that anything's OK if god does it - we have to obey different laws and may not question his purposes. In that case, how about asking them why religion has caused more wars, deaths and persecutions than anything else. They'll then say that's a perversion of the true religion. (I had an ordained minister say that to me last month.) Then you say that the 'perversion' of religion appears to be its most universal manifestation.

And on and on and on ..... You'll never win; you're wasting your breath talking reason to the irrational.

[thundril]

I agree with Griblet. religion is not rational; that's the whole point of it!
You can only argue against a particular religion on emotional, aesthetic or moral grounds; none of which is entirely determined by logic.

[marcospolaca]

Yeah, the whole ten plagues thing smells of terrorism to me. I mean, killing random people to scare leaders into some political objective? What else would you call it?

[Sel]

Hi There dman
Like you, it was the many Biblical and religious contradictions that got to me. I spent 3 of my precious teen years living in a convent boarding school. When those nuns finished with me I was an agnostic but did not come out of the closet till 3 years ago at the ripe old age of 60!

Griblet has it - you cannot present a rational argument to an evangelical christian. Trust me. I have tried and was flatly told at the end of the conversation: "Well we will have to agree to disagree but we both know where you will end up." AARGH

Enjoy the conversations here. This is an interesting bunch.

[Tetenterre]

So "shit happens" in fairy stories; nothing new here. We don't get all het up if shit happens in Grimms or Greek mythology or Egyptian mythology or.., so isn't it a tad irrational to get het up if shit happens in Abrahamic mythology?

[Griblet]

So "shit happens" in fairy stories; nothing new here. We don't get all het up if shit happens in Grimms or Greek mythology or Egyptian mythology or.., so isn't it a tad irrational to get het up if shit happens in Abrahamic mythology?

Seems to me religion is different, in that it also makes claims about god's love and kindness and prayers being answered. It's the inconsistency between that side and the vicious stuff which was bothering dman.

[dman]

So "shit happens" in fairy stories; nothing new here. We don't get all het up if shit happens in Grimms or Greek mythology or Egyptian mythology or.., so isn't it a tad irrational to get het up if shit happens in Abrahamic mythology?

Seems to me religion is different, in that it also makes claims about god's love and kindness and prayers being answered. It's the inconsistency between that side and the vicious stuff which was bothering dman.

You've hit the nail on the head, Griblet.

For a long time, I've felt too afraid to speak my mind (with an evangelical church up the road) - I can still remember being at a primary school assembly when they had an evangelical preacher in the building (to do the morning assembly). Even now, I remember wondering whether or not to raise my hand and say 'Why does God kill people?"

[marcospolaca]

The Passover is a celebration of the act known to modern international conventions as 'Collective Punishment'.

Huh? How are the plagues 'punishment'? Yaweh & co were a NGO not even related to the Egyptian government. (at least according to the story)

If the same thing were to happen here - A group of bearded middle eastern men murder random 'firstborn' people to scare our leaders into taking some political action... we would have a different term for that entirely.

[thundril]

So "shit happens" in fairy stories; nothing new here. We don't get all het up if shit happens in Grimms or Greek mythology or Egyptian mythology or.., so isn't it a tad irrational to get het up if shit happens in Abrahamic mythology?

None of the shit that happens in Grimms tales is taken seriously by political powerful, wealthy, heavily armed nation states.
The Passover tale of collective punishment is taken very seriously indeed, in at least one such.

[thundril]

The Passover is a celebration of the act known to modern international conventions as 'Collective Punishment'.

Huh? How are the plagues 'punishment'? Yaweh & co were a NGO not even related to the Egyptian government. (at least according to the story)

Punishment is not something practised only by recognised governments.
Punishment beatings, knee-cappings, 'necklaces' etc are often carried out by people revolting ( ) against govts too.
Sometimes, such individual actions may be 'justifiable'. The random collective punishment of 'slaying the first-born of every house of Egypt' OTOH, would be regarded as a crime (in the last couple of centuries anyway) by all 'civilised' nations.

If the same thing were to happen here - A group of bearded middle eastern men murder random 'firstborn' people to scare our leaders into taking some political action... we would have a different term for that entirely.

Yes. Several terms to choose from: terrorism, mass murder, genocide, crimes against humanity. Take your pick amonst them. Unless the perpetrator is Jahweh himself. In which case it's supposed to be 'celebrated'.