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Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Nick
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#21 Post by Nick » April 28th, 2010, 1:54 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

From the Daily Telegraph, quoted on Richarddawkins.net: with my bold
Diplomat disciplined over Pope memo is named
The diplomat who has been disciplined over a Foreign Office memo mocking the Pope was accused last night of being “clueless” about the Catholic faith.

By Gordon Rayner, Chief Reporter
Published: 6:20AM BST 27 Apr 2010

Anjoum Noorani, the diplomat who has been disciplined over a Foreign Office memo mocking the Pope
Anjoum Noorani, 31, was the leader of the Papal Visit Team which drew up a document suggesting the Pope should launch his own range of “Benedict” condoms, open an abortion clinic and stay in a council flat in Bradford.

The Foreign Office document
Mr Noorani, whose identity has until now remained secret, was moved to “other duties” after he gave authorisation for the memo to be sent to Downing Street and three Whitehall departments.

The memo, which was leaked to The Sunday Telegraph, threatens to overshadow the Pope’s entire four-day visit in September after it prompted fury in the Vatican and among Catholics in Britain.

Senior members of the church have described Mr Noorani and his team as having “not the slightest understanding of Catholicism”. None of the four-strong group is thought to be a practising Catholic.

The memo, which also called for the Pope to bless a homosexual marriage, was emailed around Whitehall by Steven Mulvain, a 23-year-old Oxford graduate who describes his sexual orientation on a social networking website as “gay”.

Mr Mulvain has not been disciplined for his role in the fiasco.

Mr Noorani, who, like Mr Mulvain, is a graduate of Balliol College, Oxford, chaired the “brainstorm” session which led to the “Ideal Visit” memo, which also proposed that the Pope should sing a duet with the Queen and sponsor a network of Aids clinics.

He worked as press secretary at the British Embassy in Russia between 2002 and 2007, where he dealt with all Russian media inquiries about Britain’s response to the murder of the former KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko. He was unavailable for comment last night and his mother, who lives in Windsor, said she “can’t say anything”.

Although the Vatican is now trying to draw a line under the memo fiasco, Papal aides believe the Government’s choice of non-Catholic staff typifies the “lack of respect” being shown towards the first ever state visit by a Pontiff.

One source said: “The most striking thing about the Foreign Office team has been how ineffectual they are. They have been disengaged and, frankly, clueless.

“I have never had the impression that any members of the team were informed or even sensitive to the Catholic Church or Catholicism generally.”

One senior source at the Catholic Church in England and Wales said: “This does beg the question of how seriously this visit is being taken by the Government.

“All of our dealings with this Foreign Office team have suggested they don’t have any understanding of Catholicism and that’s how this issue seems to have come about.

“Why did they even have this brainstorming session in the first place? The Pope’s itinerary was decided a long time ago, so it’s not as if there was much room for extra events to be laid on.”

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, said: “This whole episode was utterly unacceptable.

“A Conservative-run Foreign and Commonwealth Office would put a stop to such pointless time-wasting and insulting activities. Visits by international leaders should be handled with the respect they deserve and that we would expect to be extended to us.”

The Foreign Office declined to comment on the religious beliefs of the members of the Papal Visit Team.
If Clegg makes it to be PM and inexplicably makes a State Visit to the Vatican, can we take it that Ratzo will scour his pocket state for a group of atheists to work out his itinerary?


Disappointing view from Hague. Pure electioneering, methinks.

Fia
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#22 Post by Fia » April 28th, 2010, 2:16 pm

The Bishop of Chester wrote to Nick
I'm not sure it's fair to say that the RC Church condemns the sexuality of lesbian and gay people, although it does see the proper place for sexual relationships to be within marriage.
I eagerly await the RC church celebrating civil partnerships, then :laughter:

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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#23 Post by Gottard » July 5th, 2010, 4:30 pm

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Dave B
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#24 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2010, 4:58 pm

peneasy wrote:More gov. £ for the pope :sad2:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... yom-kippur
Not "gov. £", peneasy, it's my bloody money and that of all the rest of us that pay taxes here!
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ASHEd
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#25 Post by ASHEd » July 6th, 2010, 1:00 am

Yeah government money, and who are the government funded by in essence (not all)? the British taxpayer.

Technically, I'm not a taxpayer. But even then, surely I can say it would definitely be better for people's money to be spent on Education, Transport and Health care etc.

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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#26 Post by Gottard » July 6th, 2010, 9:07 pm

:pointlaugh:
....and the poor!...who is not interested in signature shoes (Prada) and ermine shawls.
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Alan C.
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#27 Post by Alan C. » July 13th, 2010, 3:15 pm

If this head of state can be arrested; why not the Pope?
Genocide arrest warrant for Sudan's president
The genocide charge follows an ICC arrest warrant issued against Bashir in March 2009 for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
My bold, surely ratslinger could be charged with crimes against humanity?
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grammar king
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#28 Post by grammar king » July 13th, 2010, 5:47 pm

Well... it's not like he ordered the raping of children.

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Dave B
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#29 Post by Dave B » July 13th, 2010, 7:15 pm

How does "not taking commonly accepted legal action required in order to bring the perpetrators of crime to justice when in a position to do so" rate in terms of complicity?
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grammar king
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#30 Post by grammar king » July 13th, 2010, 9:43 pm

I don't think failing to punish counts as a crime against humanity.

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Dave B
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#31 Post by Dave B » July 13th, 2010, 9:53 pm

Hmm, except that, as I understand it, punishment is supposed to act as a deterrent and thus, hopefully, prevent future occurrences. I admit that I have not seen this happy in reality - when a person decides to commit a crime, such as sexual abuse, I would guess that he or she rarely considers the possible outcome of the offence in terms of what might happen to them.

Now, "humanity". Yes, this means the whole of the race in this context, but how wide could we take the spirit of Donne's "No man is an island . . ." & "Send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"? Could a crime of this nature against a single child be considered a crime against the honour of the race as a whole?
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Marian
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#32 Post by Marian » July 14th, 2010, 1:12 pm

grammar king wrote:I don't think failing to punish counts as a crime against humanity.
Generally speaking that's probably true but isn't the pope god's representative on earth? Doesn't that make him more accountable in a way?
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Dave B
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#33 Post by Dave B » July 14th, 2010, 3:43 pm

Marian wrote:
grammar king wrote:I don't think failing to punish counts as a crime against humanity.
Generally speaking that's probably true but isn't the pope god's representative on earth? Doesn't that make him more accountable in a way?
Hmm, could you use that qualifier in a secular court of law? Perhaps in the sense that he should be a squeaky clean example to those of his belief and thus is guilty of a failure in his duty of trust? But that's more like a canon law offence I suppose.
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Alan C.
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#34 Post by Alan C. » July 14th, 2010, 4:23 pm

grammar king wrote:
I don't think failing to punish counts as a crime against humanity.
Are you suggesting the Pope should be the one to decide if the perpetrators should be punished?

The likelihood that he knew thousands of kids all over the world were being abused and didn't inform the civil authorities, I would say counts as a crime against humanity, and I'd like to see the old fraud in court for it.
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Gottard
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#35 Post by Gottard » July 14th, 2010, 8:37 pm

My rational opinion:
preamble: the matter is complicated for the pope being both a head of State (a monarch) and the head of a Church (moral/ethical dimension).

I do not consider the "head of Church" side because it has no judicial implications (judicially speaking).
As a head of State:I cannot omit to consider that, as such, the Vatican avails itself of "immunity warrants" on all diplomatic residences where it is present; the thing is further complicated in those instances where the hosting State and the Vatican have closed special "concordats" covering the the religious aspect of the matter; you may have heard the Vatican's phrase "we are ready to collaborate within the terms of the concordat". This dreadful sentence means to me "look, we can talk at length but we've both signed a paper saying that this is our private business"; dreadful because it demonstrates that, "when our interests are at stake we could not care less of the moral aspect".
In the case of the visit to the UK, shortly: a monarch is visiting another monarch; you cannot object to that. In my opinion the only claim can be addressed to the British Monarch on ethical grounds but you cannot blame the Gov. for the allotted budget because we are talking about a State visit. Should the Queen turn down the invitation then the budget aspect dissolves itself.
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Alan C.
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#36 Post by Alan C. » July 14th, 2010, 10:35 pm

peneasy
preamble: the matter is complicated for the pope being both a head of State (a monarch) and the head of a Church
My bold,
He is neither a head of state nor a monarch, as the UN does not recognise the Vatican city (the clue is in the name) as a country.

List of United Nations member states. I want to see the old fraud arrested if he has the audacity to land on our shores.
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Nick
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#37 Post by Nick » July 15th, 2010, 10:09 am

peneasy wrote:.
As a head of State:I cannot omit to consider that, as such, the Vatican avails itself of "immunity warrants" on all diplomatic residences where it is present; the thing is further complicated in those instances where the hosting State and the Vatican have closed special "concordats" covering the the religious aspect of the matter; you may have heard the Vatican's phrase "we are ready to collaborate within the terms of the concordat". This dreadful sentence means to me "look, we can talk at length but we've both signed a paper saying that this is our private business"; dreadful because it demonstrates that, "when our interests are at stake we could not care less of the moral aspect".
That's very interesting, and fresh information, at least to me. Thanks.

Let me return the favour. :D

In the case of the visit to the UK, shortly: a monarch is visiting another monarch; you cannot object to that. In my opinion the only claim can be addressed to the British Monarch on ethical grounds but you cannot blame the Gov. for the allotted budget because we are talking about a State visit. Should the Queen turn down the invitation then the budget aspect dissolves itself.

The Queen is a constitutional monarch. SHe did not invite, and could not have invited, the pope to visit in a state capacity. It was that snake Gordon Brown, hoping to curry favour with Scottish Catholics, who did it. The previous government is solely to blame. The Queen is not in a position to withdraw the invitation, even if she wanted to.

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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#38 Post by Nick » July 15th, 2010, 10:37 am

I've just received this, in response to the petition protesting Ratzo's visit:
Government response

Pope Benedict XVI will visit the UK from 16 to 19 September at the invitation of Her Majesty The Queen. The visit is described as a Papal Visit with the status of a State Visit. The programme will include a number of pastoral events, which are the responsibility of the Catholic Church, as well as some significant official events, which will provide opportunities for issues of common interest to the UK Government and the Holy See to be discussed at the highest level.

The Holy See has a global reach and so is a valuable international partner for the UK Government. Our relationship with the Holy See enables us to address jointly a range of foreign policy and development issues. These include working towards delivery of the Millennium Development Goals, addressing the impacts of climate change, preventing and resolving conflict, and finding ways to encourage disarmament.

As with any bilateral diplomatic relationship, there are issues on which we disagree. The Holy See is clear on our positions on these issues. However, we believe that Pope Benedict’s visit will provide an opportunity to strengthen and build on our relationship with the Holy See in areas where we share interests and goals, and to discuss those issues on which our positions differ.

Since the visit has the status of a State Visit, and some parts of the programme are being organised by the British Government, a proportion of the costs of the Visit will fall to the Government. The costs can be divided into two categories: policing costs, which will be met by the State from existing policing budgets, and non-policing costs, which will be split between the Catholic Church and the Government. The total size of the costs at this stage is not confirmed but discussions are currently under way to decide the appropriate levels of contribution from the Government and the Catholic Bishops’ Conferences of England and Wales, and of Scotland. Other parts of the programme, such as the Masses and other pastoral events, are the responsibility of the Catholic Bishops’ Conferences. The direct costs of these events will therefore be borne by the Catholic Church.
Frankly, it's a disgrace!

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Alan C.
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#39 Post by Alan C. » July 15th, 2010, 1:37 pm

policing costs, which will be met by the State from existing policing budgets,
From yesterday's Scotsman (my comment at No 11)
Recruitment freeze as Strathclyde Police faces squeeze on its spending
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#40 Post by Gottard » July 15th, 2010, 8:10 pm

Alan C. wrote:My bold, He is neither a head of state nor a monarch, as the UN does not recognise the Vatican city (the clue is in the name) as a country.
I'm afraid no Alan C, the Vatican is recognized as a sovereign state by some although not all States. He's got an "Observer" status at the UN....where he makes his vociferous voice heard ....just because most of the audience let this happen! :sad2:
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

Gottard
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Re: Dawkins and Hitchins planning to arrest the Pope!

#41 Post by Gottard » July 15th, 2010, 8:33 pm

Nick wrote:I've just received this, in response to the petition protesting Ratzo's visit:
Government response
Pope Benedict XVI will visit the UK from 16 to 19 September at the invitation of Her Majesty The Queen. The visit is described as a Papal Visit with the status of a State Visit. The programme will include a number of pastoral events, which are the responsibility of the Catholic Church, as well as some significant official events, which will provide opportunities for issues of common interest to the UK Government and the Holy See to be discussed at the highest level.
................................
These include working towards delivery of the Millennium Development Goals, addressing the impacts of climate change, preventing and resolving conflict, and finding ways to encourage disarmament.
Frankly, it's a disgrace!
"The programme will include a number of pastoral events"....
That's the fucking trick, a State visit but a pastoral visit as well; can you imagine Sarkozy making a state visit and concurrently pontificate on "moral issues"? :sad2:

"the Holy See" Unbelievable! Its official name is "Vatican City State", nothing Holy in it! If the Gov. addresses them as "the holy see" it means to me that the UK Gov. recognizes it to be "HOLY"; this expression is frightening if spoken by a Gov.

"...working towards delivery of the Millennium Development Goals, addressing the impacts of climate change"
How can, on Earth, a religious movement help in the solution of Millennium goals and impact of climate change?
In a short sentence: atrocious way of communicating to the British :angry:
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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