INFORMATION

This website uses cookies to store information on your computer. Some of these cookies are essential to make our site work and others help us to improve by giving us some insight into how the site is being used. For further information, see our Privacy Policy. Continuing to use this website is acceptance of these cookies.

Did Jesus exist?

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
Post Reply

Do you believe Jesus existed?

Definitely
5
8%
Probably
22
34%
Probably not
21
32%
Definitely not
8
12%
Other
9
14%
 
Total votes: 65

Message
Author
freddofrog
Posts: 7
Joined: December 23rd, 2009, 4:54 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#121 Post by freddofrog » December 24th, 2009, 12:47 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Maria wrote:I agree with the view that it doesn’t matter whether he existed or not. However, I have in the past enjoyed sparring with Christians on this evidence and I reproduce here the saved draft of a post I did on another forum some years ago, in case it’s of interest. Although my academic background – such as it is – is as a historian, I don’t claim expertise on the period and the 'research' I did was simply surfing the web.
Excellent work, Maria!

It appears that many people think that Christ is Jesus' last name, when it should read Jesus THE Christ, where Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Hundovir
Posts: 806
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 3:23 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#122 Post by Hundovir » December 24th, 2009, 7:26 am

freddofrog wrote:It appears that many people think that Christ is Jesus' last name, when it should read Jesus THE Christ, where Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one".
But that's wrong surely? It is his surname, and his middle name begins with "H.":

"Jesus H. Christ"

I'm not sure what the "H." is short for though.

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#123 Post by philbo » December 29th, 2009, 8:38 pm

Hundovir wrote:I'm not sure what the "H." is short for though.
"Hundovir"?

(or "Historicallyimprobable")

User avatar
Alan C.
Posts: 10356
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#124 Post by Alan C. » December 29th, 2009, 10:16 pm

philbo
(or "Historicallyimprobable")
Or historicallyimpossible.
I'm still waiting on this thread for one single piece of historicall evidence for the Jesus guy.
I don't believe there is any. Is there.........?
Scholars and historians have been looking for 1600 years and have found.....................nowt!
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#125 Post by philbo » December 30th, 2009, 9:10 am

Alan C. wrote:
philbo
(or "Historicallyimprobable")
Or historicallyimpossible.
I'm still waiting on this thread for one single piece of historicall evidence for the Jesus guy.
I don't believe there is any. Is there.........?
Scholars and historians have been looking for 1600 years and have found.....................nowt!
<pedant>A complete lack of evidence doesn't make it impossible</pedant>

Alan C. wrote:Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers
...just noticed your sig line :laughter: .. or even :hilarity:

Trinoc
Posts: 239
Joined: October 20th, 2009, 12:04 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#126 Post by Trinoc » December 30th, 2009, 1:47 pm

philbo wrote:<pedant>A complete lack of evidence doesn't make it impossible</pedant>
I have no evidence that there are (or aren't) invisible fairies living at the bottom of my garden. Would it make sense for me to believe they might be there?
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#127 Post by philbo » December 30th, 2009, 5:34 pm

Trinoc wrote:
philbo wrote:<pedant>A complete lack of evidence doesn't make it impossible</pedant>
I have no evidence that there are (or aren't) invisible fairies living at the bottom of my garden. Would it make sense for me to believe they might be there?
We have a complete lack of evidence of lots of things, e.g. the possibility of life around some other star.. that doesn't make these things impossible. It's not a logical step to suggest that my saying it's not impossible somehow implies that I think it makes sense for you to believe in them.


I can't believe I'm really arguing this...

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#128 Post by Nick » December 30th, 2009, 7:27 pm

Hundovir wrote:I'm not sure what the "H." is short for though.
It's a bit like that film ET.. What's 'ET' short for?
Spoiler:
Cos he's got short legs :D

User avatar
grammar king
Posts: 869
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 2:42 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#129 Post by grammar king » December 30th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Do the gospels not count as historical evidence at all? Or are we going to dismiss evidence just because it was later included in the Bible?

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#130 Post by philbo » December 30th, 2009, 8:27 pm

But the gospels were written way after the events they're reporting, and almost definitely not by people who were there at the time. At best, they're hearsay evidence.

There are plenty of writings from that sort of age (AD 60ish and onwards) that show there were people around who believed in the Jesus Christ character, yet nothing from when he was actually (well, theoretically) alive. Then, of course, you've got Saul/Paul who never saw the guy alive, yet wrote lots of letters about how wonderful & godly he was. Nowadays someone like that would probably be institutionalized.

User avatar
Alan C.
Posts: 10356
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#131 Post by Alan C. » December 30th, 2009, 9:01 pm

grammarKing
Do the gospels not count as historical evidence at all?
Er no, why do you think they should?
Do the gospels not count as historical evidence that wine can be magiked from water? Where do you draw the line?
I'm leaving this thread until somebody sends me via email or PM one scrap of credible evidence for the existance of Jesus.
I won't hold my breath.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Trinoc
Posts: 239
Joined: October 20th, 2009, 12:04 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#132 Post by Trinoc » December 30th, 2009, 9:04 pm

philbo wrote:There are plenty of writings from that sort of age (AD 60ish and onwards) that show there were people around who believed in the Jesus Christ character, yet nothing from when he was actually (well, theoretically) alive. Then, of course, you've got Saul/Paul who never saw the guy alive, yet wrote lots of letters about how wonderful & godly he was. Nowadays someone like that would probably be institutionalized.
Don't you believe it! They would be making a fortune writing books, appearing on chat shows, and selling the film rights.

Step forward, Dan Brown ...
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

User avatar
grammar king
Posts: 869
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 2:42 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#133 Post by grammar king » December 30th, 2009, 9:52 pm

You draw the line at what is unreasonable. Written evidence is not sufficient to establish the occurrence of a miracle, obviously, but it is sufficient to establish the mere existence of some guy on whom a story was based. There are plenty of weird things written about Mohammed and Julius Caesar, but fortunately we can separate the reasonable from the unreasonable and don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

User avatar
Alan C.
Posts: 10356
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#134 Post by Alan C. » December 30th, 2009, 11:03 pm

There are plenty of weird things written about Mohammed and Julius Caesar, but fortunately we can separate the reasonable from the unreasonable and don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Bites lip and kicks ones own arse for responding............But there is historical evidence for Julius Caesar, his pic is on coins, statues etc, he was written about while still alive.
Show me where either Jesus or Mo are described (let alone illustrated) SHOW ME!

Note to self, show more self control

This really is my last post on this stupid topic........Unless.........Somebody shows some evidence.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

User avatar
grammar king
Posts: 869
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 2:42 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#135 Post by grammar king » December 30th, 2009, 11:54 pm

What kind of evidence do you want? Seems like you want a sledgehammer when a nutcracker would do.

Ok, how about the book of Galatians? It's dated earliest, written before 50AD. In it, Paul says he got his information directly from Peter and James. He mentions no miracles of Jesus other than the Resurrection (just like in the rest of his letters - the miracles were only included in later writings), so your line-drawing problem isn't there.

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#136 Post by philbo » December 31st, 2009, 9:07 am

grammar king wrote:Ok, how about the book of Galatians? It's dated earliest, written before 50AD. In it, Paul says he got his information directly from Peter and James. He mentions no miracles of Jesus other than the Resurrection (just like in the rest of his letters - the miracles were only included in later writings), so your line-drawing problem isn't there.
So.. you've got something written 20 years after the event where someone says he spoke to someone else who saw something a couple of decades earlier. And that's the best you've got.

If you think that constitutes "evidence", I'd hate to be in the dock with you in the jury.

User avatar
grammar king
Posts: 869
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 2:42 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#137 Post by grammar king » December 31st, 2009, 5:54 pm

Evidence that someone existed. Not evidence of anything extraordinary whatsoever. If someone in the pub told you about a mate they had 20 years ago you'd have no problem believing them.

Hundovir
Posts: 806
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 3:23 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#138 Post by Hundovir » December 31st, 2009, 6:03 pm

grammar king wrote:Evidence that someone existed. Not evidence of anything extraordinary whatsoever. If someone in the pub told you about a mate they had 20 years ago you'd have no problem believing them.
BUT if they told me his mate's mum was a virgin, he turned water into wine, raised people from the dead, walked on water and rose from the dead himself, as well as saying a lot of religious things...

it would not be unreasonable to suspect that he was making the whole thing up.

User avatar
grammar king
Posts: 869
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 2:42 am

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#139 Post by grammar king » December 31st, 2009, 6:14 pm

Yes, but as I said, Paul never mentions any miracles except from the Resurrection. The rest seems to have been made up afterwards. The classic grain of truth gradually turning into a legend.

Hundovir
Posts: 806
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 3:23 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#140 Post by Hundovir » December 31st, 2009, 6:24 pm

Except that with Paul, he's not telling you about his mate (I leave aside the Damascus road vision), he's telling you about his mates (Peter, James) who told him about their mate. (Or brother maybe.)

philbo
Posts: 591
Joined: December 18th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Re: Did Jesus exist?

#141 Post by philbo » January 1st, 2010, 9:18 pm

grammar king wrote:Evidence that someone existed. Not evidence of anything extraordinary whatsoever. If someone in the pub told you about a mate they had 20 years ago you'd have no problem believing them.
I was was talking to this bloke down at the pub, he said that twenty years earlier he'd seen someone on the road who this other bloke he'd spoken to said had been crucified a few days earlier.

I've often wondered: how did Saul know that the guy on the road was the same chap who he was told (without any corroboration) was dead already? The bible doesn't mention DNA analysis, fingerprint checks or even a photo.

Post Reply