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Are we cultural Christians?

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Do you consider yourself to be a cultural Christian?

Yes
2
11%
No
14
74%
Sometimes/Maybe
3
16%
 
Total votes: 19

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Zoe
Posts: 564
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 4:08 pm

Are we cultural Christians?

#1 Post by Zoe » December 19th, 2007, 1:22 pm

Alan H wrote:
Thomas wrote:Am I the only one who is fed up to the back teeth of stories about atheists being killjoys or pc nazis that want to stop people celebrating their Christian heritage? This is the first year I've noticed such a fuss being made!

:angry:
No, you're not the only one, although I think there has been a fuss in previous years - but it does seem to be growing. It's the usual conflation of secularists not wanting the state (in whatever form) to promote or be seen to promote any religion and the mistaken belief that atheists don't want anyone to celebrate - not even in their own homes! Such is the misunderstanding about what secularism is all about.
Does wanting to celebrate Christmas make us 'cultural Christians' a la Richard Dawkins?

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

I was surprised to see him use the term. Would anyone here use it? What does it actually mean?

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jaywhat
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Re: Do you consider yourself to be a cultural Christian?

#2 Post by jaywhat » December 19th, 2007, 1:44 pm

No never.
I do not like the language used in this phrase. I was brought up in a churchy way - choir and altar boy - and chucked it around age 15 never to return.
I detest the idea of being called 'culturally christian' and can almost visualise the CofE clever clogs saying well you were once a christian, you were never a muslim or a sikh or a pagan this or that so you must be 'culturally christian' . I say bollocks.

Jem
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#3 Post by Jem » December 19th, 2007, 1:59 pm

In my heart of hearts, yes, I do consider myself one because I am comfortable with - even enjoy - certain aspects of attending church.

I would never call myself one, however, much less tick the Christian box on a census form or whatever.

Maria Mac
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Re: Do you consider yourself to be a cultural Christian?

#4 Post by Maria Mac » December 19th, 2007, 2:51 pm

jaywhat wrote: I say bollocks.
Me too. I just cannot relate to the idea at all.

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Alan C.
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#5 Post by Alan C. » December 19th, 2007, 2:59 pm

I've never considered myself "Christian" cultural or otherwise.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Oxfordrocks
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#6 Post by Oxfordrocks » December 19th, 2007, 8:46 pm

To me, the phrase "Cultural Christian" just means being brought up in a "christian"(small"c") society. From singing hymns at school to going to church for "hatches, matches and dispatches". Religion has had a bearing on all our lives and it's not something we can ignore.

I guess most of the population are "Cultural Christians" eg. celebrating X-mas and Easter but having nothing to with religion the rest of the year. Indeed, I would bet that apart from these two times in the year religious thoughts never enter the heads of a large percentage of the population.

That's why I voted "sometimes" in the poll
hello

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whitecraw
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#7 Post by whitecraw » December 19th, 2007, 9:26 pm

‘Cultural Christian’ is mainly a pejorative term used by Christian fundamentalists to characterise those who are nominally Christian but who are not active in their faith.

Dawkins isn’t using the term in this mainstream sense, however. He seems to be alluding to the fact that his English culture has been shaped by Christianity and so, insofar as he is an encultured being, he too is an historical product of England’s Christian heritage. Basically he’s saying that, in the case of Christmas, singing carols etc. is part of his Englishness rather than an expression of religious faith – i.e he’s a ‘cultural Christian’ rather than someone who believes in Christianity.

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Alan C.
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#8 Post by Alan C. » December 19th, 2007, 10:58 pm

witecraw
i.e he’s a ‘cultural Christian’ rather than someone who believes in Christianity.
If we MUST have a debate on "Christianity" can we first establish which branch of "Christianity" we are talking about, after all, there are 3,000+ variations on the theme.
So much for the "gospel" written by god, the people who purport to believe this stuff can't even agree on it's meaning.
I would like a Christian to tell me, which parts of the bible to take literally, and which parts are "metaphorical" and more important, how do you tell the difference?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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whitecraw
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#9 Post by whitecraw » December 20th, 2007, 12:50 am

If we MUST have a debate on "Christianity" can we first establish which branch of "Christianity" we are talking about, after all, there are 3,000+ variations on the theme.
I think Dawkins’ point is that singing carols at Christmas has more to do with our (sic) Englishness than with Christianity. So we needn’t have a debate on ‘Christianity’ at all.
So much for the "gospel" written by god, the people who purport to believe this stuff can't even agree on it's meaning.
I too have noticed the ‘non-identity’ of Christianity – it can’t be reduced to any particular set of beliefs and practices, since there will always be a ‘branch’ that deviates or dissents from that particular set. It’s hopelessly pluralistic and ‘undecidable’ in its meaning. Thus any characterisation of Christianity is a parody.
I would like a Christian to tell me, which parts of the bible to take literally, and which parts are "metaphorical" and more important, how do you tell the difference?
Well, I’m not a Christian (in anything but a cultural sense), but no part of the Bible is to be taken ‘literally’. It’s a collection of canonical writings in a variety of genres, none of which is straightforwardly historical, and all of which require exegesis (extensive and critical interpretation) to get at their meanings. Whether or not a correct interpretation (‘the true meaning’) of any of these writings is decidable is a matter of huge and ongoing debate within philosophical hermeneutics.

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Aphra
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#10 Post by Aphra » December 20th, 2007, 2:05 am

The BHA made a big thing about expanding its membership by recruiting "cultural Christians". I think that's a mistake; it dilutes the message and confuses things. I've detected an increasing tendency to woolliness and more "let's not criticise religion" type comments in their forum, which suggests that the "cultural Christians" see Humanism as a totally inoffensive, bland philosophy. I reserve the right to be offensive. Trouble is, the more of these woolly people they recruit, the woollier the organisation becomes. It's like when the RSPCA was infiltrated by pro-hunting people who wanted to change its policies.

DougS
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#11 Post by DougS » December 20th, 2007, 2:26 am

Jem wrote:In my heart of hearts, yes, I do consider myself one because I am comfortable with - even enjoy - certain aspects of attending church.
You attend church? :supershock:

I've voted sometimes/maybe because we do celebrate Christmas and Easter in a fairly traditional way and I enjoy singing along to carols if I hear them on the TV though I would draw the line at attending a carol service.

Nick
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#12 Post by Nick » December 20th, 2007, 10:24 am

I don't think that we should be too concerned by talk of being 'cultural' christians. We inherit a whole host of cultural influences along the way. For example we drive on the left. This derives from the practice of passing with ones sword arm (normally the right) available to defend onesself against an oncoming traveller. But not too many of us are knights these days. Likewise, in the marina where I live, the use of power tools (ie noisy ones) is banned on Sundays. Not because it is a sin, but because it is nice to have at least one day a week without angle grinders whirring. It is merely a cultural hangover that the day chosen is Sunday. Vast amounts of music and art are derived from christian culture, and, I dare say, certain customs, if not created by christianity have been accentuated by it. As a society, we eat meat, we drink alcohol. These are major cultural distinctions between 'cultural christians' and hindus and muslims.

On the other hand, I think we can say, with a great deal of conviction, that most of the population are 'culturally humanist'. Though they may believe a few fairy tails about gods and virgin births, resurrections and heaven, the underlying beliefs (eg on the whole, it's not a good idea to kill people) is derived from the evolution of the human. Likewise the idea of marriage, forgiveness and christmas are all derived from the human experience. Furthermore, there has been a drift away from christian teaching over the years, so that most people do not think, for example,that gays should be put to death. They form their ideas of morality from their human experience, not from an ancient text.

To talk of cultural christianity is a generalisation, and all generalisations are dangerous, even this one. Yes, it can be picked to bits, but hey! unless the term is hijacked by those who wish to impose christian teaching "because we are a christian nation", it can be usefully employed in its rightful context.

Thomas
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#13 Post by Thomas » December 20th, 2007, 11:15 am

Well said, Nick, and thanks for the information about why we drive on the left. I never knew that.

MalteseHumanist
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#14 Post by MalteseHumanist » December 20th, 2007, 3:44 pm

If anything, we'd be cultural pagans or cultural polytheists. Remember...christians stole christmas...virgin birth, 25th december...all copied.
"...when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong." - Richard Dawkins

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gcb01
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#15 Post by gcb01 » December 20th, 2007, 5:48 pm

MalteseHumanist wrote:If anything, we'd be cultural pagans or cultural polytheists. Remember...christians stole christmas...virgin birth, 25th december...all copied.
and that's only the start of their grand thievery!
Regards

Campbell

Nick
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#16 Post by Nick » December 21st, 2007, 5:03 pm

There's a scene in "To the Manor Born" when Audrey fforbes-Hamilton tells Richard DeVere that as the owner of the manor he should go to church. "But I'm not religious" he replies. "That has nothing to do with it!" snaps Audrey.

A lot of people are culturally christian in this way. Amongst the less educated they just go along with things as they do not feel empowered to plough their own furrow. For the middle classes, they perceive that it is cultural christianity, as they see it, that works. For example, they see discipline in schools as easier to enforce if cloaked in christianity. And as beneficiaries of the social system, they are keen not to rock the boat which has brought them so far.

When I manned the BHA stand at the Tory conference, there were many occasions when school governors and teachers would agree with just about everything we stand for, but would decline to sign a petition because they were a governor or teacher at a faith school. It was not the religious belief that was important, in fact it was hardly an issue at all. It was that they felt they would be attacking the 'ethos' of the school, which though christian by label, was in fact the production of well educated children who could progress well in modern Britain. Try testing them on christian doctrine, however, and they most of them would have failed miserably. These same people would run a mile from a properly religious school, and many of them were dead set against muslim schools.

Yes, we all share a christian heritage, but it infuriates me that people should be dishonest in this way, especially with children.

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Alan H
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#17 Post by Alan H » December 21st, 2007, 6:22 pm

Nick wrote:These same people would run a mile from a properly religious school, and many of them were dead set against muslim schools.
Was it Rowan WIlliams who hesitated for a while, when discussing Muslims being accepted at CofE schools, before answering a question in the negative about whether he would want 'CofE' children to attend Muslim schools?

'Faith' schools are OK as long as they're CofE faith schools, apparently.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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whitecraw
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Re: Are we cultural Christians?

#18 Post by whitecraw » December 21st, 2007, 8:16 pm

It was that they felt they would be attacking the 'ethos' of the school, which though christian by label, was in fact the production of well educated children who could progress well in modern Britain. Try testing them on christian doctrine, however, and they most of them would have failed miserably.
Can’t be! All faith schools are dens of iniquity, brainwashing children with an insidious ideology and abusing them with degrading acts of worship. Educational performance doesn’t come into it. Faith schools are a scandal. They shouldn’t be allowed!

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