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Atheist school's values & ethics

For discussions related to education and educational institutions.
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Nick
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#201 Post by Nick » February 15th, 2014, 2:38 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Hi Mike!

I've had a quick butcher's at your site and have a few thoughts.....

Humanists: are a diverse bunch. If I were drawing up a list, I'd put that as a first point, and be less dogmatic about the list. I'd say "they are likely to support..." or some such. Seems more inclusive and welcoming. ISTM that humanism is more an approach to life than a set of rules.
are atheists - they believe that god is an unnecessary idea for which there is no evidence.
I'd put it slightly differently: they believe that there is no evidence for the existence of God or gods.

can answer address the big questions of life without inventing the idea of gods.
support the right to believe what you like - as long as you cause no harm to anyone else.
Hmmm... should we not encourage others not to believe the moon is made of cream cheese, or that the world is controlled by lizards....?
feel that people must earn respect by what they do, not by what they say or claim to believe.
Hmmm... Could not Professors Dawkins and Hawking be unintentionally caught by that one?

put people first in the one life we lead together - people are far more important than [ human-invented] gods.
are against worship in schools because it assumes the existence of a god.
and presumes the efficacy of worship.
are against faith schools - you should make a free and informed choice about belief.
Hmmm... I'd be more concerned about inclusion. After all, parents don't let children make free and informed decisions about their education. They (the children) don't generally have the capacity.
are upset by many of the things done in the name of religion.
This may well be true, but is it really a tenet of humanism....?

Just some thoughts, which you are free to ignore! :)

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trusleymike
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#202 Post by trusleymike » February 15th, 2014, 4:37 pm

Thanks Nick.

As with the religious, there are lots of subtle ways in which we atheists interpret our own beliefs - and what is important to one is singularly unimportant to another. For example, I don't get off on the whole science kick that seems to be the prime mover for late-coming atheists like Dawkins.

I have tried to precis my own beliefs many times and over the years, for me, it comes down to:

"God is an unnecessary postulate for which there is no evidence"

So, expressing that in simpler ways (maybe avoiding "postulate" for primary school!) is where it is at (for me.)

I don't mind people believing in a cream cheese moon or fairies at the bottom of the garden or The Pink Hippo - doesn't bother me a bit - I know lots of bonkers people who are totally harmless. It is the harm element of religion that bothers me.

I also have a problem with Dawkins (though I see my ranting side in him) and I can't get on with people who think the Universe "popped into existence out of a nothing - a singularity" (or whatever). Maybe that's because I am simple - but I like simple <g> I do wish scientists would be careful with their use of language - they tend to dig holes as both Einstein and Hawking did.

"The god assumption" in worship has always been a hang-up to me - it is intellectual abuse so I keep the line simple on that one.

I agree 100% about "inclusion"- see:

http://www.bitbarn.co.uk/dcie

and I intend to add a section specifically on faith schools. It is an area I am VERY active in and I led the failed attempt to stop the local Al Madinah school being set up - though everything I, and others, said at the beginning came to pass!

The "upset by many of things done by religion" bit is a dig. The "Guide to Humanism" leaflet has about 40% dedicated to "Things that make humanists cross" and I felt that might be pushing it. However, the opposite is the case. Most people feel that we should make it clear that one of the reasons we are humanists, not just atheists, is because we are downright cross about a lot of the bad stuff done in the name of religion.

I have added a bit more to that web page.

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Dave B
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#203 Post by Dave B » February 15th, 2014, 5:01 pm

The "Guide to Humanism" leaflet has about 40% dedicated to "Things that make humanists cross" and I felt that might be pushing it.
I have to agree with you there, Mike. That is like defining Humanism by what it is not, by its negatives, which is rarely a good idea for any kind of promotion.

At the same time I feel one has to avoid anything like, "Humanism can do this and that for you!" That is a typical ploy of the evangelist.

But what is left? The offer that there is an alternative, a rational view of the reality of what is and the fact that each of us has our own private perception of that reality.

I have seen it said that, in many ways, Humanists are individualists, you have implied this in your posts. Those professing a religion are perhaps "flockists", those who need to feel closely united to people of very similar minds - not like Humanists with their common tenets but, mostly, individual values in the detail.

I read far too much "future fiction" but often wonder if a new split is occurring in the line of homo sapiens, the emergence of some sort of "homo sapiens individualus", or whatever the Latin would be! :wink:
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#204 Post by coffee » February 17th, 2014, 9:52 am

More of good stuff

Values in Action Inventory of Strengths
Classification of Strengths[edit]
1.Wisdom and Knowledge: creativity, curiosity, judgement, love of learning, perspective
2.Courage: bravery, perseverance, honesty, zest
3.Humanity: love, kindness, social intelligence
4.Justice: teamwork, fairness, leadership
5.Temperance: forgiveness, humility, prudence, self-regulation
6.Transcendence: appreciation of beauty and excellence, gratitude, hope, humor, spirituality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Values_in_ ... _Strengths


Meaning of life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

"What is the meaning of life?" is a question many people ask themselves at some point during their lives, most in the context "What is the purpose of life?".[10] Some popular answers include:

To realize one's potential and ideals

To chase dreams.[143]
To live one's dreams.[144]
To spend it for something that will outlast it.[145]
To matter: to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you lived at all.[145]
To expand one's potential in life.[144]
To become the person you've always wanted to be.[146]
To become the best version of yourself.[147]
To seek happiness[148][149] and flourish.[3]
To be a true authentic human being.[150]
To be able to put the whole of oneself into one's feelings, one's work, one's beliefs.[145]
To follow or submit to our destiny.[151][152][153]
To achieve eudaimonia,[154] a flourishing of human spirit.

To achieve biological perfection

To survive,[155] that is, to live as long as possible,[156] including pursuit of immortality (through scientific means).[157]
To live forever[157] or die trying.[158]
To adapt. Often to improve one's chances of success in another purpose; sometimes, as a purpose in itself (adapting to adapt).
To evolve.[159][160]
To replicate, to reproduce.[143] "The 'dream' of every cell is to become two cells."[161][162][163][164]

To seek wisdom and knowledge

Philosopher in Meditation (detail) by RembrandtTo expand one's perception of the world.[144]

To follow the clues and walk out the exit.[165]
To learn as many things as possible in life.[166]
To know as much as possible about as many things as possible.[167]
To seek wisdom and knowledge and to tame the mind, as to avoid suffering caused by ignorance and find happiness.[168]
To face our fears and accept the lessons life offers us.[151]
To find the meaning or purpose of life.[169][170]
To find a reason to live.[171]
To resolve the imbalance of the mind by understanding the nature of reality.[172]

To do good, to do the right thing

To leave the world as a better place than you found it.[143]
To do your best to leave every situation better than you found it.[143]
To benefit others.[6]
To give more than you take.[143]
To end suffering.[173][174][175]
To create equality.[176][177][178]
To challenge oppression.[179]
To distribute wealth.[180][181]
To be generous.[182][183]
To contribute to the well-being and spirit of others.[184]
To help others,[3][183] to help one another.[185]
To take every chance to help another while on your journey here.[143]
To be creative and innovative.[184]
To forgive.[143]
To accept and forgive human flaws.[186][187]
To be emotionally sincere.[145]
To be responsible.[145]
To be honorable.[145]
To seek peace.[145]


To love, to feel, to enjoy the act of living

To love more.[143]
To love those who mean the most. Every life you touch will touch you back.[143]
To treasure every enjoyable sensation one has.[143]
To seek beauty in all its forms.[143]
To have fun or enjoy life.[151][184]
To seek pleasure[145] and avoid pain.[197]
To be compassionate.[145]
To be moved by the tears and pain of others, and try to help them out of love and compassion.[143]
To love others as best we possibly can.[143]
To eat, drink, and be merry.[198]

To have power, to be better

To strive for power[25] and superiority.[197]
To rule the world.[152]
To know and master the world.[194][199]
To know and master nature.[200]

Life has no meaning

Life or human existence has no real meaning or purpose because human existence occurred out of a random chance in nature, and anything that exists by chance has no intended purpose.[172]
Life has no meaning, but as humans we try to associate a meaning or purpose so we can justify our existence.[143]
There is no point in life, and that is exactly what makes it so special.[143]

One should not seek to know and understand the meaning of life

The answer to the meaning of life is too profound to be known and understood.[172]
You will never live if you are looking for the meaning of life.[143]
The meaning of life is to forget about the search for the meaning of life.[143]
Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.[201]

Life is bad
Life is a bitch, and then you die.[146]
Better never to have been.[202]
See also Vale of tears

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Dave B
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#205 Post by Dave B » February 17th, 2014, 11:42 am

What is the meaning of life?

Whatever meaning you wish to put on it.

All or none of the above apply! :D

What is the purpose of life is slightly different - but I suppose that can also be answered in a similar way, whatever purpose you put on it (in the subjective sense.) But in the view of the rest of reality and the Universe it has no meaning or purpose at all!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#206 Post by coffee » February 18th, 2014, 9:36 am

Humanism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... nism.shtml

A positive approach to life
Humanism is an approach to life based on reason and our common humanity, recognising that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone.

Robert Ashby
While atheism is merely the absence of belief, humanism is a positive attitude to the world, centred on human experience, thought, and hopes.

The British Humanist Association and The International Humanist and Ethical Union use similar emblems showing a stylised human figure reaching out to achieve its full potential.

Humanists believe that human experience and rational thinking provide the only source of both knowledge and a moral code to live by.

They reject the idea of knowledge 'revealed' to human beings by gods, or in special books.

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities.

It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.


International Humanist and Ethical Union

Humanist ideas

Most humanists would agree with the ideas below:

•There are no supernatural beings.
•The material universe is the only thing that exists.
•Science provides the only reliable source of knowledge about this universe.
•We only live this life - there is no after-life, and no such thing as reincarnation.
•Human beings can live ethical and fulfilling lives without religious beliefs.
•Human beings derive their moral code from the lessons of history, personal experience, and thought.

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trusleymike
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#207 Post by trusleymike » February 18th, 2014, 10:33 am

I have "taken on board" (yuk, cliche alert!) some comments and updated the text as a .DOC file which may be reached at:

http://www.secularderby.org/occam.htm

There is a finite amount one can put in a leaflet for reasons of space and cost. One also has to allow a professional designer to spread things out - overcrowded material is never a good thing and designers like SPACE!

One also has to be aware that the wishy-washy does not go down well - it may provide food for discussion over a glass for wine but it can get a bit long winded and nebulous when one is dealing with pre and early teenagers. I think I covered most of that side of things during late night discussions over nice bottles of Irish whiskey with a Catholic priest who was in the same hall of residence as me - and that is a LONG time ago!

Product differentiation is the key to good marketing. If Humanism is merely a fag-packet's thickness away from liberal Christianity how does one differentiate? Almost all the wishy-washy things one could say about Humanism could equally be said by most of the friendly vicars I know - leaving out the god and Jesus bits.

What is the USP of Humanism? (I know you know, but, just in case, "Unique Selling Proposition.")

I freely admit to coming from the hard-nosed secular rather than religious-substitute non-conformist end of things. I don't need a replacement for religion because I never needed religion in the first place and I have better things to do with my time. I therefore feel uncomfortable about describing my beliefs as a "life stance" - it all gets a bit too close to the "Christianity without the god bit" for me - part of the reason why the only self-label I feel really comfortable with is "atheist" - but they won't let you into schools to talk about that. Hence the page on "concerns":

http://www.secularderby.org/humanist.htm

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coledavis
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#208 Post by coledavis » February 18th, 2014, 10:39 am

I haven't got anything against special books - of philosophy. I guess I don't like 'revealed' books, found in bushes, mountains, etc. Indoors type, me.
http://www.coledavis.org - insight analyst, specialist in the interpretation of surveys for charities and education

http://www.careersteer.org - careers quiz helping people to choose their career direction

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#209 Post by coffee » February 19th, 2014, 9:38 am

I have got special humanist folder. :)

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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#210 Post by Fia » February 20th, 2014, 2:43 pm

trusleymike wrote: What is the USP of Humanism? (I know you know, but, just in case, "Unique Selling Proposition.")
ethical atheism, I reckon :)

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Dave B
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#211 Post by Dave B » February 20th, 2014, 7:05 pm

^ +1
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#212 Post by coffee » February 28th, 2014, 9:21 am

Hi Mike,

I pinched this (the following below) from your website a few years ago, I find it very useful and I like it very much. I think you may consider stick it back on your website.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Welcome to Derbyshire Secularists and Humanists

Morality and respect

Morality has nothing to do with religion - there are good and bad religious people just as there are good and bad non-religious people.

Humanism does not lay down a set of rules cast in stone or prescribed in holy books. However, we have a strong sense of personal morality because we believe that with rights and freedoms go personal responsibilities.

One of our supporters defines her own "moral code" as:

. Cause no direct or indirect harm to anyone by what you do or say.
. Pursue freedom, fairness and justice for all.
. Treat other people in the same way you would like them to treat you.
. Take care of the world around you to leave a positive legacy for the future.

She then goes on to define "harm" as "physical harm, emotional harm, economic harm, discrimination, prejudice or oppression."

We respect those who earn respect by what they do, not by what they say or what they believe.

We have infinite respect for people like those who work selflessly for organisations such as Médecins Sans Frontières - people who put their principles and humanity into action.

We have no respect of abstract ideas - even our own. All ideas are open to criticism and sometimes ridicule - it is not possible to offend an idea.

The problem comes when religious people feel that ideas should be respected merely because they are written in a holy book and millions of people believe them. Perhaps they should lighten up and accept that criticism of ideas is not the same as criticism of a person.

++++++++++++++++++++++
Creating a set of moral values

Moral values are far older than any of today's religions and are necessary for any society to work in harmony. We base our moral values on three things:

. Empathy: "how would you feel if someone did that to you?"
. Consequences: "what will be the result of what you choose to do?"
. Responsibility: "you are responsible for your own actions - what would happen if everyone did it?"

An example of a set of moral values:

. Do no harm, physical or psychological, and do not discriminate on the basis of those things that the individual has no control over.
. Treat other people in the same way you would like them to treat you.
. Be responsible for your actions and the consequences of those actions.
. Accept a duty of care towards others and the world we share - leave a positive legacy to future generations.
. Affirm the individual's right to self-determination.
. Be truthful, honest, trustworthy, fair, just and honourable.
. Respect those who earn respect by what they do, not by what they believe.
++++++++++++++++++++++

Morality is too important to be left to religions

A terrifying thought

A religious person who loses his/her faith will become a psychopath: taking drugs, drinking to excess, raping and killing without conscience or remorse.

This must be so because religious people claim that their religion is the sole source of morality - the ability to tell right from wrong.

We atheists need to be less persuasive or we will be faced with hoards of ex-religious people roaming the streets with no sense of morality.

If morality is totally dependent on religion then perhaps Voltaire was right:
"I want my lawyer, tailor, valets, even my wife to believe in God.
I think if I do I shall be robbed less and cheated less."

Perhaps it is best to keep freethinking to ourselves and let the religious get on with keeping order with threats of hellfire and damnation.

It's "insult an atheist" time again!

The word of god is the only source of morality. The holy books of god are the only evidence of moral rules. Only the religious may judge what is right and what is wrong because only they have the hot-line to he/she/it who dictated the rules - god.

How insulting can you get?

Those of us with no need of god or religion must, by the definition of the religious, be immoral - incapable of telling right from wrong.

The irony is that all the world's religions stole their ideas from us in the first place!

Why do we need a sense of morality - and what is it?

We need it to survive - simple as that. Humans are social animals, we live in groups which need rules to stop them falling apart.

The common moral decencies come about to enable us to lead happy lives, at ease and in harmony with our fellow men.

They also come about because of the most socially useful of all human emotions - empathy, the ability to feel what others feel. Empathy is why we cry during a good film or when we read a good novel or when we see tragic events on the news - we understand what is happening to someone else and we feel for them.

The most obvious rule that comes from empathy is the Golden Rule which is far older than any of the world's religions:

"treat other people in the same way you would like them to treat you."

The common moral decencies that lead to a good and happy life are easy to define:

. Integrity
We should tell the truth, keep our promises, be sincere and be honest.
. Trustworthiness
We should be loyal to our friends, relatives, neighbours and the planetary community at large.
We should be dependable, reliable and responsible towards others who depend on us.
. Benevolence
We should show good will towards others and not harm or injure anyone else nor steal or destroy the property of others.

Sexual relations should be based on mutual consent between adults.

We should be kind, sympathetic and compassionate and do whatever we can to alleviate the pain of suffering of others.

We should do whatever we can to increase the number of people who can enjoy a good and happy life.
. Fairness
We should be responsible for our own actions and be willing to account for our conduct.

We should seek justice and equality for ourselves and for others - especially those less advantaged than ourselves.

We should never exploit others simple because we are stronger: intellectually, physically, numerically or financially; than they are.

We should be tolerant of others, cooperate with them and seek to resolve differences through peaceful negotiation and compromise where necessary.

Is that it?
Yes, it's as simple as that.

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#213 Post by coffee » March 19th, 2014, 9:22 am

Just updating this link

Amsterdam Declaration 2002
http://iheu.org/humanism/the-amsterdam-declaration/

Another good ones, just ignore the faith bit

UNIVERSAL HUMAN NEEDS/VALUES

http://www.johnkinyon.com/testing/pdfs/ ... ut.Rev.pdf

http://www.cindybigbiephd.com/storage/j ... andout.pdf

Quote of the Week “A humanist is someone who does the right thing even though she knows that no one is watching.” – Dick McMahan, New York humanist, 2004

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#214 Post by coffee » April 2nd, 2014, 9:21 am

And another good one, it is more inclusive but u can forget the faith bit and just take the humanist bits.

UNIVERSAL HUMAN NEEDS

http://www.restorativeempathy.com/Unive ... mpathy.pdf


Feelings/Emotions

http://www.restorativeempathy.com/Feeli ... mpathy.pdf

http://www.restorativeempathy.com/



That’s Humanism: Four animated videos about Humanism narrated by Stephen Fry
https://humanism.org.uk/thatshumanism/

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#215 Post by coffee » April 27th, 2014, 12:51 pm

Hi,

Look like a very interesting program- 3 episodes- starting on 29 April 2014 11.00am on bbc radio 4

Intelligence: Born Smart, Born Equal, Born Different

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b041xbxc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/programmes/ ... 2014/04/29


Just updating the link

http://nycnvc.org/needs.htm

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#216 Post by coffee » April 29th, 2014, 9:47 am

Chain seeks state cash for 'humanist schools'

http://www.thelocal.no/20140428/norway- ... st-schools

coffee
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#217 Post by coffee » May 9th, 2014, 9:19 am

SECULAR/HUMANIST GRACES that I found on the internet
(I like a little bit of ritual :smile: )


From Reginald Le Sueur

To the Farmers and Growers,
To the Butchers and Bakers,
To the Cooks and the Caterers ;
--we give thanks for this meal.


From BHA website:

“Let us think thrice while we are gathering here for this meal. First, let us think of the people we are with today, and make the most of the pleasure of sharing food and drink together. Then, let us think of the people who made the food and drink and brought it to us, who serve us and wait on us, and who clear up and clean up after us. Finally, let us think of all the people all over the world, members with us in the human family, who will not have a meal today.”


(Nicolas Walter)
“Good food, good meat, Sit down, let’s eat”.


(Myron Morris)
“We thank those who produced it,
And those who transported it.
We thank those who prepared it,
And those who serve it.
And those who clean it afterward.
Let us now sit down and enjoy it”.


By Paul Diamond
Some years ago a woman wrote to Ann Landers. The letter writer told how she and her husband were atheists, though they didn't make a big deal about it. At a family gathering in another state her husband was asked to say grace at dinner. He mumbled something off and let it go at that. The woman wanted Ms. Landers to tell her how to deal with this in the future without compromising their principals. Ms Landers said to pass it off, to say, "Let cousin Lem do it,” or something to that effect.


That column inspired me to compose a 'Non-Believers Grace.' I sent it to Ann Landers but, to no surprise, she never responded. I share it here for humanists and freethinkers this Thanksgiving.

A Non-Believers Grace
I offer my deepest appreciation and my most profound apologies to the plants and animals whose lives were forfeit for our good health this day.


We give thanks to the ranchers and the farmers, their workers and their hands whose skill, sweat and toil have brought forth this bounty from the Earth.


We are grateful to the workers in the fields who pick our food, the workers in the plants
where our food is processed, the teamsters who carry it to market and the stockers and the checkers who offer it up for our selection.

We are particularly appreciative for those at this table who have prepared this food with love and affection for our enjoyment and nourishment this day.

We remember fondly those who the miles and circumstance keep from joining us today as we remember those who are no longer with us and are grateful for the time we have shared with them.

We enjoy the warmth and fellowship that surrounds this gathering as we share the fervent hope that people the world over can share the good fortune, warm feeling and conviviality that embraces this gathering.

Thank you.

We are thankful for the food on this table
We are thankful for this time together
Our thoughts go out to family and friends
We hope that they are safe and well
Let's eat/dive in.


Earth we thank you for our food,
For work and play and all that's good,
For wind and rain and sun above,
But most of all for those we love.
posted by McIntaggart at 3:39 AM on August 24, 2005 [2 favorites]

And a short meal gatha:
"We receive this food in gratitude to all beings
Who have helped to bring it to our table,
And vow to respond in turn to those in need
With wisdom and compassion."


Personally I like the idea of contemplating how much went into providing the food.
posted by mendel at 4:43 AM on August 24, 2005 [1 favorite]

My son learned this one in his Montessori school (natch), and we use it quite a bit in our agnostic home:

I am thankful for green grass under me (I am thankful/grateful )
I am thankful for blue skys over me (I am thankful/grateful )
I am thankful for good friends beside me
I am thankful for good food in front of me
and peace all over the world.
posted by Scoo at 7:09 AM on August 24, 2005



good food, good meat, good vegetable, thank all those whose made it possible, let's eat/dive in.


We thanks all animals and plants whose have died to give us food.
Let us eat consciously, resolving by our work to pay the debt of our existence.


Also addressed to Nobody In Particular, I've said:
For the meal we are about to eat,
for those that made it possible,
and for those with whom we are about to share it,
we are thankful.


For bacon, eggs, and buttered toast
Who eats the fastest gets the most!
Rain

============
Earth who gives to us this food
Sun who makes it ripe and good
Dear Earth, dear Sun, by you we live
Our loving thanks to you we give.


submitted by The Reverend Nancy Robinson:
Words Fit for a Feast

We celebrate this occasion
with food from the earth.
May it fill us with fellowship
and add to our mirth.


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Dave B
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#219 Post by Dave B » June 9th, 2014, 10:49 am

Thanks for the links, Coffee, filed them for suture reference.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#220 Post by Alan H » June 9th, 2014, 11:03 am

Dave B wrote:filed them for suture reference.
Is that so you can stitch them all together? :D
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Atheist school's values & ethics

#221 Post by Dave B » June 9th, 2014, 11:23 am

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:filed them for suture reference.
Is that so you can stitch them all together? :D
Doh!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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