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Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

For discussions related to education and educational institutions.

Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

Yes
8
32%
No
16
64%
Other
1
4%
 
Total votes: 25

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kbell
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Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#1 Post by kbell » November 21st, 2008, 11:16 am

Help me make my mind up.

They are barred from the police. I perceive there is less confidence in the police than in teachers amongst some ethnic minorities and allowing BNP members to be serving officers would make it worse. I can't say I like the idea of committed racists (which is how I think of anyone who is paid up member of the BNP) teaching anyone's kids but the BNP is a legal organisation and wouldn't barring them be the thin edge of the wedge?
Kathryn

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Ninny
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#2 Post by Ninny » November 21st, 2008, 11:57 am

I can't help you make up your mind, Autumn, which is why I voted "other". I'm sure about the police and the prison service - BNP members definitely should be banned. Teaching - probably not, although anyone thick enough to join the BNP is probably not bright enough to teach children; particularly as logical thinking and philosophy are slowing creeping into primary schools.

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Alan H
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#3 Post by Alan H » November 21st, 2008, 12:04 pm

Ninny wrote:anyone thick enough to join the BNP is probably not bright enough to teach children
However, there appears to be several doctors on the BNP's membership list (and several Reverends). It looks like intelligence is not an inherent disqualifier from being a BNP member. Could it be similar to religion: there are some otherwise intelligent people (including Nobel Laureates) who believe in the big man in the sky?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

para handy
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#4 Post by para handy » November 21st, 2008, 12:53 pm

Yeah, I was quite surprised to see scientists, doctors and other intelligent people on that list because the public face of the BNP seems to be one of ignorant, stupid thugs. But it's possible to be both intelligent and extremely nasty, I suppose, or intelligent about some things but stupid about others.

I'm not in favour of barring them from teaching. Winning their hearts and minds is the way to go not repression.

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Alan C.
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#5 Post by Alan C. » November 21st, 2008, 12:58 pm

I voted no, if you ban BNP members from teaching jobs, then imho you should ban everybody who holds extreme views, devout Catholics, evangelical Christians, Jehovas witness', and Muslims, to name a few.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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jaywhat
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#6 Post by jaywhat » November 21st, 2008, 2:05 pm

I cannot see how anyone can have any doubt about wanting to bar BNP members from teaching.
Can you imagine your child being taught by one?
Can you imagine, if you were black, your child being taught by one?

The BNP should not be allowed as a legal political party.

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Paolo
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#7 Post by Paolo » November 21st, 2008, 2:42 pm

I think that people should be entitled to believe or think whatever they like in their own time.

In the workplace there are certain expectations that are held, depending on the job. The BNP has quite transparent (if not explicit) opinions about multiculturalism, which conflict with the opinions held by our current education system and police force, not to mention wider society. People should not be in a position where their stated views conflict with the institutional interests of their employer. It is easy enough to hold a viewpoint but keep it private - simply don't become a member of a club which gives a clear indication of your affiliations.

Let's turn this round a bit - should members of the BHA be barred from the clergy?

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Ninny
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#8 Post by Ninny » November 21st, 2008, 2:54 pm

The membership list was allegedly published on the internet. Can we see it?

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Alan C.
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#9 Post by Alan C. » November 21st, 2008, 3:25 pm

Ninny wrote:The membership list was allegedly published on the internet. Can we see it?
You'll find it here Ninny.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#10 Post by Alan H » November 21st, 2008, 4:18 pm

Just in case that site disappears, it can also be found here, where there are also maps and other analyses of the data.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#11 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » November 21st, 2008, 5:56 pm

jaywhat wrote:I cannot see how anyone can have any doubt about wanting to bar BNP members from teaching.
I have little doubt that it would be wrong to stop teachers from being members of a legal political party, whether it's the BNP or the Communist Party of Great Britain or anything else. I think it's wrong to stop police officers and civil servants and members of the armed forces from being members of a legal political party, too.
jaywhat wrote:Can you imagine your child being taught by one?
Can you imagine, if you were black, your child being taught by one?
It's a horrible thought. But then it's pretty horrible to imagine my hypothetical child being taught by a racist who is not a member of the BNP. And presumably there are quite a few of those. And if I had a child who was homosexual, I'd be pretty horrified at the idea of him or her being taught by anyone who believed that homosexuality was an abomination. What could one do to prevent that?
jaywhat wrote:The BNP should not be allowed as a legal political party.
Banning the BNP, and driving the movement underground, would probably give it a great big shot in the arm. It would certainly do nothing to stop people being racists and xenophobes.

Emma

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Alan H
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#12 Post by Alan H » November 21st, 2008, 9:53 pm

Letter in today's Guardian:
Since the list has now been removed from the internet, readers might be interested to know that there are some things which are beyond the pale, even for the BNP - as evidenced by the listing for one gentleman in Sussex: "Member describes himself as a witch: potential embarrassment if active."
Note: the list is still on the Internet and I doubt it will ever disappear!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#13 Post by Alan H » November 21st, 2008, 9:54 pm

And another gem...
BNP member Dennis Pearce on BBC's Ten O'Clock News said about the leak of its membership details: "Sadly, it's as though we're living in a fascist state, where people are being victimised for being in a legitimate political party." Who says the far right don't have a sense of humour.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

tubataxidriver
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#14 Post by tubataxidriver » November 21st, 2008, 10:13 pm

I voted no because I think people should be able to hold whatever views they like in private. However, the policies of the BNP in regards to racial separation and repatriation seem to conflict with various international conventions and elements of UK law. At some point society decides an organisation is going too far and should be banned: for example when they become terrorists. So far there is no indication that the BNP are drifting in this direction. They provide a method of steam-letting-off for those of a right wing persuasion that is for now fairly harmless. We may not like their members' views as individuals but they are entitled to hold them. What I feel sorry for are the families and in particular the children mentioned on this list, who have been tarred with the same extremist brush.

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Alan H
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#15 Post by Alan H » November 21st, 2008, 10:23 pm

This, in the Times:
Sir, I read with astonishment that the membership list of the BNP had been published on the internet and my heart goes out to all those named therein. It must be hell to live with a constant fear of persecution, with the possibility of discrimination dogging your every step and others thinking they are better than you.

Hang on a minute . . .
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Maria Mac
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#16 Post by Maria Mac » November 21st, 2008, 11:06 pm

tubataxidriver wrote:I voted no because I think people should be able to hold whatever views they like in private. However, the policies of the BNP in regards to racial separation and repatriation seem to conflict with various international conventions and elements of UK law. At some point society decides an organisation is going too far and should be banned: for example when they become terrorists. So far there is no indication that the BNP are drifting in this direction. They provide a method of steam-letting-off for those of a right wing persuasion that is for now fairly harmless. We may not like their members' views as individuals but they are entitled to hold them. What I feel sorry for are the families and in particular the children mentioned on this list, who have been tarred with the same extremist brush.
I agree with this.

I confess I don't know much about the BNP's policies but, much as I hate the thought of them or any racists being teachers, I don't think it's inevitable that their support for racist policies necessarily means they are going to bring racist attitudes and ideas into the classroom (or into extra-curricular activities). I would hope that if this happened, it would be spotted pretty quickly in this day and age. Or am I being naive?

Is the reason police officers are barred because it's perceived that membership could jeopardise their credibility with the public? If so, I can see the point.

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#17 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » November 22nd, 2008, 8:37 am

Paolo wrote:In the workplace there are certain expectations that are held, depending on the job. The BNP has quite transparent (if not explicit) opinions about multiculturalism, which conflict with the opinions held by our current education system and police force, not to mention wider society. People should not be in a position where their stated views conflict with the institutional interests of their employer. It is easy enough to hold a viewpoint but keep it private - simply don't become a member of a club which gives a clear indication of your affiliations.

Let's turn this round a bit - should members of the BHA be barred from the clergy?
Let's turn it round a bit more. If the UK were a theocracy, and all the schools were faith schools, and nearly everyone was religious, and religious beliefs informed all public decisions, should members of the BHA [---][/---] an organisation with explicit opinions about religion that conflicted with the opinions held by all public institutions and by the wider society [---][/---] be barred from being teachers, police officers, civil servants and members of the armed forces? After all, people should not be in a position where their stated views conflict with the institutional interests of their employer. They could easily keep their humanism quiet, but simply not become a member of a club that gives a clear indication of their affiliations. In other words, they could have freedom of thought, but not freedom of expression or freedom of association.

The very idea scares the bejesus out of me.

Emma

lewist
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#18 Post by lewist » November 22nd, 2008, 9:25 am

Emma Woolgatherer wrote:The very idea scares the bejesus out of me.
It frightens the willies out of me as well, Emma. I voted No.

I can recall when I was at school, there was a history teacher in the secondary school down the road who was an Empire Loyalist. She didn't need to be banned from teaching. It was well known what her personal views were and the brighter children were aware and had her number. Had she taught with an overt political slant she would have been rumbled very quickly. As I recall, she was a minor figure of fun.

I spent years as a teacher and had to go along with the religious stuff in school, discussing things in class with children in a fair and even handed way to help children achieve an understanding. I had to make arrangements for JWs at Christmas and make sure they went to secular assemblies but not the others. It was nonsense but it was part of my job and I just got on with it. It was part of my professionalism.

If there were teachers who were members of the BNP should we not be able to expect the same high degree of professionalism from them that we expect from all the other teachers?
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Parapraxis
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#19 Post by Parapraxis » November 22nd, 2008, 10:15 am

My view is thus: People are entitled to their beliefs, usually I would say "reasoned beliefs" but then even to us here if voting for the BNP seems completely unreasonable, to those who do vote somehow they manage to rationalise it in their own mind. So, everone has the right to their beliefs, the difficulty when it comes to teachers, or police-officers, or social workers, is will these beliefs interfere with their job? Will a teacher be unduly biased towards white-children? So a teacher should not be sacked solely on the basis they vote for the BNP, but if it was deemed there was a conflict of interest, perhaps they should seek a new career...columnist for the Daily Mail or PA to Richard Littlejohn perhaps.
The poster formerly known as "Electric Angel"

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Paolo
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Re: Should BNP members be barred from teaching jobs?

#20 Post by Paolo » November 22nd, 2008, 10:43 am

Emma Woolgatherer wrote:
Paolo wrote:Let's turn this round a bit - should members of the BHA be barred from the clergy?
Let's turn it round a bit more. If the UK were a theocracy, and all the schools were faith schools, and nearly everyone was religious, and religious beliefs informed all public decisions, should members of the BHA [---][/---] an organisation with explicit opinions about religion that conflicted with the opinions held by all public institutions and by the wider society [---][/---] be barred from being teachers, police officers, civil servants and members of the armed forces? After all, people should not be in a position where their stated views conflict with the institutional interests of their employer. They could easily keep their humanism quiet, but simply not become a member of a club that gives a clear indication of their affiliations. In other words, they could have freedom of thought, but not freedom of expression or freedom of association. Emma
Can we go back to my thought experiment please, the one that has a direct bearing on the actual world we live in rather than a purely hypotheical world? For a member of the BHA to join the clergy would be incredibly hypocritical.
The modern education system is supposed to promote inclusion and diversity, whereas the BNP stands against these ideals. In order to do their job properly a BNP member would have to supress opinions that they clearly feel strongly about (otherwise why would they join?). Self-imposed hypocrisy never brings out the best in people, they tend to become subversive.
lewist wrote:I can recall when I was at school, there was a history teacher in the secondary school down the road who was an Empire Loyalist. She didn't need to be banned from teaching. It was well known what her personal views were and the brighter children were aware and had her number. Had she taught with an overt political slant she would have been rumbled very quickly. As I recall, she was a minor figure of fun.
The point I'm trying to make is that where personal opinions clash with institutional opinions something has to give. If the views of an employee do not complement those of the institution, perhaps they are in the wrong job? Lewist's ancedote misses the point - what if she was an excellent teacher and was well respected? Her personal views would then gain a air of credibility with her students.

It is perfectly possible to be racist and intelligent and well-respected. Teachers should be role models, if they are not then are they good teachers? If they are, do you want them to hold socially views not acceptable to wider society?

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