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In or out?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#221 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2016, 11:06 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Gottard wrote:I have a suspect that all those chain resignations have been "asked" by someone high in the ladder that I don't personally know :puzzled:
Who might that be, Gottard? Go one, give us a clue, does the name start with E or G? No one else they would listennto.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Tetenterre
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Re: In or out?

#222 Post by Tetenterre » July 5th, 2016, 11:17 am

animist wrote:But where are we?
General: At the arse end of a referendum, the outcome of which most of us (I assume) do not like.
Specific: Fluid situation, so currently impossible to "nail" down.
what it is that we are trying to make work
The situation we are in (whatever that happens to be). I favour the notion of finding a democratic way of reversing the decision of the referendum (I don't know sufficient about politics or constitutional law to know how possible that is) but, if that turns out not to be possible, then I suggest that people of sincere intention (is that better?) might be inclined to put as much pressure as they can on those who are negotiating on our behalf to retain as much as possible of what was positive about EU membership with respect to, inter alia, trade, human rights, gender equality, anti-discrimination...
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#223 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 11:20 am

Are the media finally waking up to the fact we need and deserve better? Media should rethink coverage in wake of Brexit vote, says Justin Webb
BBC presenter Justin Webb has said the media needs to look again at how it covers politics and the way it holds people to account in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union.

Webb, one of the BBC Radio 4 Today team, spoke out after Oscar-winning film producer Lord Puttnam criticised the BBC’s coverage of the European debate as constipated and effectively hamstrung by its own strict rules on impartiality.

Webb said some people who campaigned to remain in the EU had felt let down by the media’s coverage of the debate before the the historic poll result on 23 June. “A discussion about holding people to account, a discussion about impartiality in the modern era, is one I suspect the broadcasters would rather welcome, if only to sort out their own thinking,” the BBC’s former North America editor, wrote in the Radio Times.

“And it should not be a discussion left to newsrooms and editorial offices and university journalism departments: it really should matter to us all.

“One of the clearest messages during the referendum campaign was that audiences were hungry for real knowledge. People wanted to go beyond claim and counter-claim so that they could work out what was true.”
Discuss...
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Tetenterre
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Re: In or out?

#224 Post by Tetenterre » July 5th, 2016, 3:07 pm

Tim Harford's analysis of why Leave beat Remain:
https://t.co/Wj6tOushSY
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

Gottard
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Re: In or out?

#225 Post by Gottard » July 5th, 2016, 4:20 pm

Dave B wrote:
Gottard wrote:I have a suspect that all those chain resignations have been "asked" by someone high in the ladder that I don't personally know :puzzled:
Who might that be, Gottard? Go one, give us a clue, does the name start with E or G? No one else they would listennto.
let me anticipate that I am unsure about the existence of a coordinated plan; I am only an observer of the British politics. If the kingdom still enjoys the trust (authority, mastery) of the political spectrum then E or the Q could be 'at work'.
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#226 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2016, 5:34 pm

Tetenterre wrote:Tim Harford's analysis of why Leave beat Remain:
https://t.co/Wj6tOushSY
Yup, comes down to who has the biggest mouths, the best propaganda and can stretch the truth most convincingly in the end.

Games politicians play that affect the lives of whole nations. Even start wars.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#227 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2016, 5:39 pm

Gottard wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Gottard wrote:I have a suspect that all those chain resignations have been "asked" by someone high in the ladder that I don't personally know :puzzled:
Who might that be, Gottard? Go one, give us a clue, does the name start with E or G? No one else they would listennto.
let me anticipate that I am unsure about the existence of a coordinated plan; I am only an observer of the British politics. If the kingdom still enjoys the trust (authority, mastery) of the political spectrum then E or the Q could be 'at work'.
Sorry, Gottard, I was pulling your leg. Top politicians answer only to monarchs and deities. In our case the first would not be able to do other than express an opinion and the latter does not exist. So, no supreme authority for these idiots to bow to, it is on their heads - but our necks.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#228 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 6:08 pm

Alan H wrote:Andrea Leadsom, a christian, seems to be against abortion, same-sex marriage and good sex education in schools. Seems to have been in favour of leaving the EU.
And she seems to think she can pre-approve websites... Should we step up online censorship?
There is a view that the internet is in need of a monitor for obscene and adult websites. Outside of cyberspace, we have bodies such as Ofcom and the British Board of Film Classification that continually work to ensure our children are not exposed to the wrong things. This could be implemented in some way online, whereby a website would have to have its content "rated" before being accessible online. While it sounds like a massive leap, the majority of new websites already go through testing when they are hosted to make sure that a site is intact and that files and content are free of viruses. This would simply be adding another check to the list, and in reality it is a burden already carried by film makers.
As clueless as Theresa 'clueless' May. God help us.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#229 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2016, 6:46 pm

Oh, dear.

When Alan appeals to non-existent entities for help I feel he has a bad case of despair.

I recognise the symptoms . . .
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#230 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 7:12 pm

Bye bye Fox.

Conservative party leadership election, first round result (MPs):

T. May: 165
A. Leadsom: 66
M. Gove: 48
S. Crabb. 34
L. Fox: 16

Was Andrea Leadsom really such a City hotshot?
When she expresses views on market and currency movements, as she did last week (notably seeming not to understand that the FTSE100 is denominated in Sterling, so that even today a Dollar investor in that index is looking at a loss of more than 10% since June 23rd), she is not speaking with the authority of experience.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#231 Post by Dave B » July 5th, 2016, 8:54 pm

Alan H wrote:Bye bye Fox.

Conservative party leadership election, first round result (MPs):

T. May: 165
A. Leadsom: 66
M. Gove: 48
S. Crabb. 34
L. Fox: 16

Was Andrea Leadsom really such a City hotshot?
When she expresses views on market and currency movements, as she did last week (notably seeming not to understand that the FTSE100 is denominated in Sterling, so that even today a Dollar investor in that index is looking at a loss of more than 10% since June 23rd), she is not speaking with the authority of experience.
Oh dear, if the losing outers give their votes to Leadsom, one of their kind, May is screwed.

Lousy choice but...

Later: bugger, got that wrong, Crabb has ducked out and is supporting May!

May can't be beaten.

[ too tired to think straight, nite, nite.]]
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#232 Post by animist » July 5th, 2016, 9:39 pm

the Tories do seem to have a weird leader election procedure. They don't seem interested in a fairer procedure for general elections, where the FPTP tradition leads to minority governments most of the time. But when it comes to their own leader they seem to bend over backwards to ensure preferential voting. Theresa May actually won more votes than the other candidates combined (just, by one) yet she is not deemed to have won!

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#233 Post by animist » July 5th, 2016, 10:23 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... o-the-sin/

as we all (except Nick, who seems to visit TH less these days but who is actually an economist) seem to be anti-Brexit, it seemed only fair to post something from the other POV, especially as Lamont is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer (if not a very successful one). His arguments, like a lot of similar Brexit ones I've seen, seem to centre on the fact that lots of countries manage without access to the Single Market, so why can't Britain? I cannot answer this easily, but ISTM that arguing for this country, which is already in the Single Market, to come out of because other countries aren't in it, is a bit unwise. Maybe these other countries have strong points that we don't have, and so our exit really will harm our exports to the EU, which still account for almost half the total. Read the article and say what you think

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#234 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 10:29 pm

Bye, bye Crabb.

ETA: Hadn't realised Dave B got there first!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#235 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 10:36 pm

animist wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... o-the-sin/

as we all (except Nick, who seems to visit TH less these days but who is actually an economist) seem to be anti-Brexit, it seemed only fair to post something from the other POV, especially as Lamont is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer (if not a very successful one). His arguments, like a lot of similar Brexit ones I've seen, seem to centre on the fact that lots of countries manage without access to the Single Market, so why can't Britain? I cannot answer this easily, but ISTM that arguing for this country, which is already in the Single Market, to come out of because other countries aren't in it, is a bit unwise. Maybe these other countries have strong points that we don't have, and so our exit really will harm our exports to the EU, which still account for almost half the total. Read the article and say what you think
One of the main arguments against the comparison is that those other countries have negotiated those agreements over many decades (or longer). We'd be starting from ground zero. Also, other countries 'managing' tells us nothing about how we'd compare in terms of trade we've had in the last four decades. Another also: even if we somehow did gain access to the EU in terms of trade market (with whatever conditions we'd need to accept to be able to do that), we'd still have to abide by all that 'red tape' and produce products to the same standards as when we were members but now without a seat at the table where new standards are determined.

Now I'll go and read that article...
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#236 Post by Alan H » July 5th, 2016, 11:00 pm

Long on rhetoric and spin. One example:
Arguing for the single market on the grounds that you can avoid a 3 per cent tariff by actually paying 7 per cent fee is mis-selling on a scale that dwarfs the PPI scandal
To come to this conclusion, he calculates that the (nett) £8 to 9 billion we pay to the EU amounts to be about 6.5% of the (unstated) £140 billion we export to the EU. However, this assumes the sole purpose of our payments is to pay for a tariff on those exports. If it was, he might have a point, but it isn't, so he doesn't.

He also makes comparisons with a load of other countries but fails to say why he believes they are valid comparisons: it's perfectly possibly that the has cherry-picked those countries for his own purposes - we'd need to see a lot more data and analysis before accepting his premise.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: In or out?

#237 Post by animist » July 6th, 2016, 7:52 am

animist wrote:the Tories do seem to have a weird leader election procedure. They don't seem interested in a fairer procedure for general elections, where the FPTP tradition leads to minority governments most of the time. But when it comes to their own leader they seem to bend over backwards to ensure preferential voting. Theresa May actually won more votes than the other candidates combined (just, by one) yet she is not deemed to have won!
answering my own post, I now realise that Tory MPs don't actually decide on the leader, they just whittle the candidates down to two, after which the Party faithful make the decision by postal ballot. This might give Leadsom a chance, unfortunately!

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#238 Post by animist » July 6th, 2016, 8:00 am

Alan H wrote:One of the main arguments against the comparison is that those other countries have negotiated those agreements over many decades (or longer). We'd be starting from ground zero.
exactly, and did you see the post where I mentioned that the EU seems to want us to leave before substantive talks start on any future arrangement? So we would be starting from ground zero after actually leaving the EU. Or even worse, after failing to make some Norway or Canada type arrangement with our former partners - since, if we did make some arrangement then we would still be in the Single Market, sort of, and Lamont's alternative of life outside would not apply; but we would not know which way were going for some time after leaving. Are people totally insane?

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Tetenterre
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Re: In or out?

#239 Post by Tetenterre » July 6th, 2016, 10:09 am

I wrote:...I suggest that people of sincere intention (is that better?) might be inclined to put as much pressure as they can on those who are negotiating on our behalf to retain as much as possible of what was positive about EU membership ...
#MoneyWhereMouthIs v1.

Just written to my MP (Desmond Swayne):
Dear Sir Desmond

The impact of leaving the EU on science and astronomy research


I am writing as a STEM Educator and also as an elected Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society (RAS).

Following the vote on 23 June to begin the process of leaving the European Union, there have been a number of concerns raised by the scientific community, including in my own field of Astronomy, about the impact of this on funding, collaboration and recruitment.

Astronomy in the UK is world-leading and is, for example, ranked third (after the USA and Germany), despite the difference in scale of available resources.1

Part of this strength derives from the straightforward arrangements for collaboration fostered by EU membership, and the free movement that allows UK science projects to recruit the best possible people, and UK researchers to take up residence elsewhere in Europe.

As a constituent, I would like you to seek assurances on the following points:

• The UK continues to ensure that scientists can move freely between EU nations and the UK; and that nationals of other EU countries domiciled in the UK are able to continue their work here
• The UK makes the necessary arrangements to continue its participation in Horizon 2020 and the European Research Council
• That the Government continues to support science, including astronomy and geophysics; with a total budget envelope that makes use of the savings that arise from cancellation of the EU membership fee

I am very happy to provide you with further information on these points, to meet you in person, and/or to arrange a meeting with representatives of the RAS.

1. http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.ph ... &area=3100
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

Nick
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Re: In or out?

#240 Post by Nick » July 6th, 2016, 10:43 am

TT, that's a very good, measured and reasonable letter. Though the EU was, for the research "community" a convenient way of collaborating, (though, of course, such collaboration should, and I'm sure, does, include nations outside the EU) that should not preclude alternative arrangements. After all, SERN lies across a border between Switzerland and the EU, and the International Space Station could scarcely be more international! But I don't think we want it run by the UN! :)

Do let us know of any reply you get from your MP. :)

Very small point: domicile is different to residency. If someone is domiciled here, then residency can't be denied. But I doubt your MP will be so pedantic- your meaning is clear.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#241 Post by Alan H » July 6th, 2016, 3:06 pm

Universities take a knock post-Brexit
European academic bodies are pulling back from research collaboration with UK academics, amid post-Brexit uncertainty about the future of UK higher education.

While post-Brexit Britain might remain inside the European research funding system, academics in other countries are nervous about collaborating with UK institutions.

UK-based academics are being asked to withdraw their applications for future funding by European partners.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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