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In or out?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#81 Post by Alan H » June 20th, 2016, 11:33 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Dave B wrote:Scrap the bloody Commission for a start?
I'm not sure I understand why. Can you elaborate?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

jdc
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Joined: January 27th, 2009, 9:03 pm

Re: In or out?

#82 Post by jdc » June 21st, 2016, 3:01 am

I'm IN, basically because of the economy.

The projections from the likes of independent research institute NIESR and one of the 'big four' auditors, PricewaterhouseCoopers, show a negative effect of Brexit on the economy (see graph linked below). A poll of over 600 economists found 4% thought we'd be better off after Brexit and 88% thought we'd be worse off. People like Dave Ramsden, who've got the big calls right in the past, think Brexit would weaken our economy. For me, it's not worth the financial risk.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClOI1fiWgAAUkye.jpg
My Blog; Twitter.
Email: 325jdc325 (at) googlemail.com

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#83 Post by Dave B » June 21st, 2016, 9:01 am

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:Scrap the bloody Commission for a start?
I'm not sure I understand why. Can you elaborate?
Not really, just that most of the anger seems to be placed on the rules and regulations generated by the commission. Feels like our Civil Service being allowed to set a lot if the rules.

Perhaps I am just caught up with the rhetoric and propaganda but the weight of "administration" seems to drag everything down.

Time for a revamp?

Does not stop me being an Inner, just one who wants to kick the politicians and pen-pushers into pragmatic practicality.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#84 Post by Alan H » June 21st, 2016, 9:33 am

Dave B wrote:Not really, just that most of the anger seems to be placed on the rules and regulations generated by the commission. Feels like our Civil Service being allowed to set a lot if the rules.

Perhaps I am just caught up with the rhetoric and propaganda but the weight of "administration" seems to drag everything down.
I think so! The 28 heads of EU Commission are appointed by the heads of Government of each State. In that sense they are 'unelected', but that's really pejorative: they are there to represent the Government and are not some secret, faceless, anonymous bunch of bureaucrats as is sometimes suggested. They really are the EU's equivalent of the UK's unelected, faceless, bureaucrats of Whitehall: we could no more get rid of the EU Commission than we could Whitehall as some Leavers might want.

The UK's current Commissioner is Jonathan Hopkin Hill, Baron Hill of Oareford. OK, I don't remember him from the last Government, but it was David Cameron who appointed him to the EU Commission.

But neither do they make laws per se. As Full Fact says:
Crucially, the Commission has only a limited role in EU law-making. It can decide some less important rules, and in general it is the only institution that can propose new laws, but it doesn’t have the power to pass them on its own.
That's where the other EU bodies come in.
...many of the proposals that it brings forward have been requested by national political leaders. And there is no guarantee that a Commission proposal will become a law.

The authority to make law belongs to the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union.

The Parliament is directly elected by EU citizens every five years. The Council of the European Union, sometimes called the Council of Ministers, is where representatives of all 28 member countries negotiate.

These two institutions debate, amend and pass EU law. Each one has a veto.

Put differently, a Commission proposal only becomes an EU law when it attracts the support of two majorities. It needs both a majority in the Council, representing at least 55% of EU countries and 65% of the EU population, and a majority in the Parliament.
The language of calling them bureaucrats, unelected, etc, come from those opposed to the EU and from those who don't understand it!

This, from Wikipedia:
2000px-Political_System_of_the_European_Union.svg.png
2000px-Political_System_of_the_European_Union.svg.png (208.48 KiB) Viewed 4585 times
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#85 Post by Alan H » June 21st, 2016, 9:49 am

From Newsthump: Cats would vote to leave EU and then refuse to go out
Britain’s cats would vote to leave the EU but refuse to go out once the door was opened, they have announced.

Despite yowling desperately to be let out, they would take one look at the climate on the other side of the door before silently returning to the settee and licking themselves.

Attempts to force them through the door would be met by either entirely fake affection and purring or psychotic rage, pretty much at random.

Cats went on to reserve the right to keep asking to leave the EU every so often so they could take a look outside and see if it smelled interesting.

Local cat Snuffleman Purrliams told us that it was important to keep your options open, and if the post-Brexit world looked cold and unpleasant they’d go and check all the other exits as well.

EU President Tusk was nonplussed by the cat’s position.

“We usually say it’s better to have people inside the tent pissing out, but with a great big mangy ginger Tom we’ll make an exception.

“They just piss everywhere and it honks to high heaven.”

In related news, French cats have confirmed they’ll keep right on spitting at you and coming into your garden for a crap when the UK leaves or not.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#86 Post by Alan H » June 21st, 2016, 1:45 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Gottard
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Joined: October 3rd, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: In or out?

#87 Post by Gottard » June 21st, 2016, 3:44 pm

International Monetary Fund: Final Report on the UK

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2016/pr16286.htm
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#88 Post by Alan H » June 21st, 2016, 7:55 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#89 Post by Alan H » June 22nd, 2016, 4:22 pm

By a friend, David Hills: Please Don’t Go
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#90 Post by Alan H » June 22nd, 2016, 5:19 pm

This has to be indicative of the whole problem with the attitude on many to the EU: its portrayal by the media, particularly those on the right: Debunking years of tabloid claims about Europe

It's a new media we - and democracy - need. Urgently.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#91 Post by Dave B » June 22nd, 2016, 5:30 pm

Not at all surprised to see the Daily Wail and the Torygraph at the top of the list.

Dear me, the Daily Mirror more sensible than the Torygraph? Well, well.

Still happy with my not bothering with the media's slant/bias all these years!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#92 Post by Dave B » June 22nd, 2016, 5:59 pm

Irritating Dunce Smith has made a comment on PM that "little Switzerland" has done 60bn in "overseas" trade whilst the EU has done 6bn.

Um, is that just "extra-EU" trade or does it include trade within the "family"? Does Switzerland's figure include their trade with the EU?

Thus is the picture painted in murky tones.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#93 Post by Alan H » June 22nd, 2016, 9:27 pm

Dave B wrote:Irritating Dunce Smith has made a comment on PM that "little Switzerland" has done 60bn in "overseas" trade whilst the EU has done 6bn.

Um, is that just "extra-EU" trade or does it include trade within the "family"? Does Switzerland's figure include their trade with the EU?

Thus is the picture painted in murky tones.
Does it include dodgy deals?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#94 Post by Dave B » June 22nd, 2016, 9:45 pm

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:Irritating Dunce Smith has made a comment on PM that "little Switzerland" has done 60bn in "overseas" trade whilst the EU has done 6bn.

Um, is that just "extra-EU" trade or does it include trade within the "family"? Does Switzerland's figure include their trade with the EU?

Thus is the picture painted in murky tones.
Does it include dodgy deals?
He possibly included his mates' tax fund transactions.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#95 Post by animist » June 23rd, 2016, 11:20 am

thanks for these great posts on the stupidity of Brexit, Alan. I have reposted many of them into Facebook, where sadly the level of intelligent discourse on this important topic is somewhat lower than here!

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#96 Post by Alan H » June 23rd, 2016, 11:49 am

animist wrote:thanks for these great posts on the stupidity of Brexit, Alan. I have reposted many of them into Facebook, where sadly the level of intelligent discourse on this important topic is somewhat lower than here!
I made the mistake of watching a few minutes - that's all I could stand - of Channel 4's Brexit programme last night. Louise Mensch, Anne Widdecombe and as much heat and as little light as the dreadful BBC programmes (not that I watched that much of them either). I think the behaviour of the media is one of the main things that needs to be changed if we are ever going to have a decent, accountable Government.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: In or out?

#97 Post by Alan H » June 23rd, 2016, 12:55 pm

Duty done.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: In or out?

#98 Post by Dave B » June 23rd, 2016, 4:51 pm

Yup, me too.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: In or out?

#99 Post by Nick » June 23rd, 2016, 11:33 pm

And me. :D

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jaywhat
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Re: In or out?

#100 Post by jaywhat » June 24th, 2016, 6:36 am

Looks like we are definitely out and I feel so sick about it.

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Dave B
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Re: In or out?

#101 Post by Dave B » June 24th, 2016, 7:44 am

Yup, though I can understand it. We head for interesting tines, unfortunately.

I have the feeling that it is as much a vote against the piss poor politicial behaviour in the UK as much as against Europe.

Are our pokiticians, at long last, going to start pulling for Britain and not for their rich pals and against each other. We are going to need a far stronger job base now, proper jobs making saleable stuff and paying a proper wage. Not a few high flyers earning sick commissions with barely living wages and zero hours contracts for the rest of us.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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