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Paris killings

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#61 Post by Alan H » November 30th, 2015, 6:23 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Paris killings

#62 Post by Dave B » November 30th, 2015, 9:33 pm

Perhaps the sometimes erratic nature of the download speed of the link was to blame but the narration, graphics and text seemed out of sync with each other - making a confusing situation even more so.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#63 Post by Alan H » December 1st, 2015, 6:07 pm

The Telegraph, of course: Jeremy Corbyn could have stopped this war. Now it will be his epitaph

Yup. It's all Labour's fault again. If only we had a Prime Minister who could step in and save us from war...
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Paris killings

#64 Post by Dave B » December 1st, 2015, 6:13 pm

Alan H wrote:The Telegraph, of course: Jeremy Corbyn could have stopped this war. Now it will be his epitaph

Yup. It's all Labour's fault again. If only we had a Prime Minister who could step in and save us from war...
If it wan't so inept it would be funny.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#65 Post by Alan H » December 1st, 2015, 6:37 pm

Image
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Paris killings

#66 Post by Dave B » December 1st, 2015, 7:40 pm

Hey, there is one almost sensible point there - the last one!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Paris killings

#67 Post by Fia » December 1st, 2015, 10:17 pm

As it seems that, despite evidence or any sense of even recent history, Westmonster will vote for bombing even more shit out of Syria tomorrow is some well misguided eye for an eye mentality covering the "business" of arms manufacture and ridiculous concern about our small island's "importance" I can only firmly state "Not in my name" and post this:
http://eveningharold.com/2015/12/01/anti-terror-police-raid-westminster-address-after-tip-off-500-planning-bombing-campaign/

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Dave B
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Re: Paris killings

#68 Post by Dave B » December 2nd, 2015, 9:01 am

I cannot see this as any kind of solution. But I wonder if there is any rational, humane solution against a group that has burned the rational and humane rulebook, a group willing to ignore, even fight against, everything we might consider civilsed.

Is the only solution to leave the people of the region to fight it out on their own terms - then try to deal with the aftermath? I do not see diplomacy working in this matter. The IRA are quoted as an example of the triumph of diplomacy, but which IRA? There are still militant factions on both sides in NI.

No, "leaving them to their own devices" would merely add centuries to the already long history of feudal, sectarian and tribal hatred that probably predates Islam.

Perhaps there is no permanent solution.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

lewist
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 8:53 pm

Re: Paris killings

#69 Post by lewist » December 2nd, 2015, 9:06 am

I can't see the case for bombing Syria. All Cameron seems to be able to do is shout insults at Jeremy Corbyn. :sad:

He comes from a bullying background; it's all he understands.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

lewist
Posts: 4402
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 8:53 pm

Re: Paris killings

#70 Post by lewist » December 2nd, 2015, 9:07 am

I can't see the case for bombing Syria. All Cameron seems to be able to do is shout insults at Jeremy Corbyn. :sad:

He comes from a bullying background; it's all he understands.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#71 Post by Alan H » December 2nd, 2015, 10:16 am

Fia wrote:As it seems that, despite evidence or any sense of even recent history, Westmonster will vote for bombing even more shit out of Syria tomorrow is some well misguided eye for an eye mentality covering the "business" of arms manufacture and ridiculous concern about our small island's "importance" I can only firmly state "Not in my name" and post this:
http://eveningharold.com/2015/12/01/anti-terror-police-raid-westminster-address-after-tip-off-500-planning-bombing-campaign/
:hilarity:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#72 Post by Alan H » December 2nd, 2015, 10:43 am

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Paris killings

#73 Post by Nick » December 2nd, 2015, 12:35 pm

Dave B wrote:I cannot see this as any kind of solution. But I wonder if there is any rational, humane solution against a group that has burned the rational and humane rulebook, a group willing to ignore, even fight against, everything we might consider civilsed.

Is the only solution to leave the people of the region to fight it out on their own terms - then try to deal with the aftermath? I do not see diplomacy working in this matter. The IRA are quoted as an example of the triumph of diplomacy, but which IRA? There are still militant factions on both sides in NI.

No, "leaving them to their own devices" would merely add centuries to the already long history of feudal, sectarian and tribal hatred that probably predates Islam.

Perhaps there is no permanent solution.
I agree, Dave. Corbyn wants negotiations, but with whom about what?

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animist
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Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Paris killings

#74 Post by animist » December 2nd, 2015, 1:39 pm

Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:I cannot see this as any kind of solution. But I wonder if there is any rational, humane solution against a group that has burned the rational and humane rulebook, a group willing to ignore, even fight against, everything we might consider civilsed.

Is the only solution to leave the people of the region to fight it out on their own terms - then try to deal with the aftermath? I do not see diplomacy working in this matter. The IRA are quoted as an example of the triumph of diplomacy, but which IRA? There are still militant factions on both sides in NI.

No, "leaving them to their own devices" would merely add centuries to the already long history of feudal, sectarian and tribal hatred that probably predates Islam.

Perhaps there is no permanent solution.
I agree, Dave. Corbyn wants negotiations, but with whom about what?
both party leaders have idiotic policies. Any defeat of Isis needs troops on the ground, but this is very problematic. An article in the "Financial Times" reminded me how much trouble the US had in defeating Al Qaeda in Fallujah in 2004; Isis are a lot stronger and smarter than their predecessors. So the unthinkable seems likely to be true: that the major powers of the world, with all their weapons, cannot eliminate a bunch of terrorist fanatics who barely have a state to their name

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Paris killings

#75 Post by Dave B » December 2nd, 2015, 4:46 pm

animist wrote:
Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:I cannot see this as any kind of solution. But I wonder if there is any rational, humane solution against a group that has burned the rational and humane rulebook, a group willing to ignore, even fight against, everything we might consider civilsed.

Is the only solution to leave the people of the region to fight it out on their own terms - then try to deal with the aftermath? I do not see diplomacy working in this matter. The IRA are quoted as an example of the triumph of diplomacy, but which IRA? There are still militant factions on both sides in NI.

No, "leaving them to their own devices" would merely add centuries to the already long history of feudal, sectarian and tribal hatred that probably predates Islam.

Perhaps there is no permanent solution.
I agree, Dave. Corbyn wants negotiations, but with whom about what?
both party leaders have idiotic policies. Any defeat of Isis needs troops on the ground, but this is very problematic. An article in the "Financial Times" reminded me how much trouble the US had in defeating Al Qaeda in Fallujah in 2004; Isis are a lot stronger and smarter than their predecessors. So the unthinkable seems likely to be true: that the major powers of the world, with all their weapons, cannot eliminate a bunch of terrorist fanatics who barely have a state to their name
That last clause does not apply but Viet Nam is a good example that the "local" fighting on their own turf, with possible help from the population, has lots ofcadvantages even over higher tech weapons. Add the fact that IS are happy to break rules tbat the West, in public at least, will not - happy to put even fellow Sunnis in danger as barriers.

One of the least pursued paths is the economic one. There are many Saudis, Omanis etc. funding IS, but our politicians are unwilling to come down ver, very hard on such places. I think we can all guess why!

Hitting IS's supply and export lines would be a huge wespon against them, but it would mean sanctions agwinst nations that are "critical" to our defence and economy - oh, and the fat cats of course.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#76 Post by Alan H » December 2nd, 2015, 6:06 pm

Calls for David 'call me Dave' Cameron to apologise for his offensive comment: 12. Number of apologies given: 0.

Syria vote: David Cameron ignores repeated calls to apologise
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6522
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Paris killings

#77 Post by animist » December 2nd, 2015, 8:29 pm

Alan H wrote:Calls for David 'call me Dave' Cameron to apologise for his offensive comment: 12. Number of apologies given: 0.

Syria vote: David Cameron ignores repeated calls to apologise
he is shameful, not because Corbyn is right, but because Cameron clearly does not care much about the issues. He wanted air strikes against Assad because the US wanted them, and now he claims to want air strikes against Isis (wonder why?). He simply exploits Labour's weakness in order to be insulting since he knows he will get away with it

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Paris killings

#78 Post by Alan H » December 3rd, 2015, 12:34 am

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
Posts: 3607
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: Paris killings

#79 Post by thundril » December 3rd, 2015, 12:47 pm

One issue that has not come up in this whole debate, but which, (I fear) will make any kind of UN-agreed settlement very difficult to get: What happens to the Golan Heights?
It is clear that in internationao law the Golan still 'belongs' to Syria. I read an article in the Jerusalem Post a couple of weeks ago speculating that, if Syria becomes a 'failed state' the Israeli claim to permanent annexation of the Golan will become stronger. And an awful lot of oil has been found there recently.
Anyone think this is irrelevant?

thundril
Posts: 3607
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Re: Paris killings

#80 Post by thundril » December 3rd, 2015, 2:37 pm

Some good will come of the Syria bombing!!!
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3 ... ia-bombing

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Alan H
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Re: Paris killings

#81 Post by Alan H » December 3rd, 2015, 2:55 pm

thundril wrote:Some good will come of the Syria bombing!!!
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3 ... ia-bombing
I wonder how many of those who voted for war have interests in these arms dealers?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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