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Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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jaywhat
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#21 Post by jaywhat » September 25th, 2015, 1:17 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Apologies and sackings are pointless - this is a criminal offence and there needs to be prosecutions. I would also expect other companies to be at the same game.

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#22 Post by Dave B » September 25th, 2015, 1:48 pm

jaywhat wrote:Apologies and sackings are pointless - this is a criminal offence and there needs to be prosecutions. I would also expect other companies to be at the same game.
+1
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Altfish
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#23 Post by Altfish » September 27th, 2015, 7:42 pm

Dave B wrote:Lewis, does the tax on your car depend on its CO2 output? If so does this scandal affect the official CO2 rating for VW diesels or is it only the NOx?

If you have been paying a lower rate of tax due to a lie I hope the government don't ask for the balance!

Later: seems it is the NOx that is critical here
I too have a VW, a 2.0L diesel Passat.
I changed to diesel on my previous car because we were told they were cleaner (especially if you do a lot of long journeys, like I do), I continued with diesel because I liked it. When I bought this car, emissions were relevant but not a deal breaker. However, if I'm pursued for back tax, I'll be onto my local dealer fairly promptly.

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#24 Post by Alan H » September 27th, 2015, 7:54 pm

Altfish wrote:
Dave B wrote:Lewis, does the tax on your car depend on its CO2 output? If so does this scandal affect the official CO2 rating for VW diesels or is it only the NOx?

If you have been paying a lower rate of tax due to a lie I hope the government don't ask for the balance!

Later: seems it is the NOx that is critical here
I too have a VW, a 2.0L diesel Passat.
I changed to diesel on my previous car because we were told they were cleaner (especially if you do a lot of long journeys, like I do), I continued with diesel because I liked it. When I bought this car, emissions were relevant but not a deal breaker. However, if I'm pursued for back tax, I'll be onto my local dealer fairly promptly.
An interesting point is whether they cheated not just on whatever US tests they have but whether they also rigged the MOT (and other countries' tests). For the MOT, I suspect they just stick something on the exhaust and monitor a car at idle or perhaps some specific revs - anyone know? If so, it may be very difficult for the car's software to know when it's being tested. For type testing (ie the tests done on a new model), it will be more strenuous and may entail a sequence of tests. In some testing of electronic equipment that has to be formally tested, the manufacturer is sometimes asked to provide a test mode. In the case of a car being tested for emissions, this might be something like rev up from idle to max revs in a given time - difficult to do consistently manually (or by foot!). If that's the case, then it would be easy for the manufacturer to alter the engine characteristics just for that test. I suspect the software will be checked by the testing lab, but I'm sure any deviousness could be hidden.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#25 Post by Dave B » September 27th, 2015, 9:46 pm

Seems the trick was very clever, if you want to call a cheat that.

The software monitored the steering column. If the engine was running and the steering column was not moving in the expected "road" conditions then this was interpretted as a standing engine test condition and the software adjusted accordingly. So it might have been switching back and forth whilst the car was idling at the lights etc.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#26 Post by Alan H » September 27th, 2015, 11:47 pm

Dave B wrote:Seems the trick was very clever, if you want to call a cheat that.

The software monitored the steering column. If the engine was running and the steering column was not moving in the expected "road" conditions then this was interpretted as a standing engine test condition and the software adjusted accordingly. So it might have been switching back and forth whilst the car was idling at the lights etc.
Ah. Surely under type testing it'd be on a rolling road so the EMS would know it was moving even if the wheel wasn't being used, so it probably wouldn't do the same at lights. But is the MOT a static test? Do MOT stations have a rolling road?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Manuel
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#27 Post by Manuel » September 28th, 2015, 2:06 am

It's a scandal. I thought it might ruin VW but it seems as though they'll manage it. I know it's not the full financial story but I thought this was interesting, as even with this catastrophe it reads as though the company might even manage to stay in profit, at least in the short term.

Financially the consequences are unlikely to be very pretty. VW has already set aside €6.5bn (£4.7bn) to cover the costs of recalls, and pay for efforts to rebuild the brand. For a company which made a net profit of €10.8bn last year, that is not an insurmountable figure. However, the real total may end up being considerably higher. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34347741

It would be amusing (although not for the motorist) if after recall, all these devices were taken out and the cars all subsequently failed the emissions tests. That surely would be a catastrophe for VW.

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jaywhat
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#28 Post by jaywhat » September 28th, 2015, 6:53 am

Not much talk of prosecutions!

lewist
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#29 Post by lewist » September 28th, 2015, 8:08 am

My Touran (aka the Tourette :hilarity: ) is only two years old. I guess I'll keep it and see what pans out.

I think VW's future will depend firstly on getting a fix and secondly on how they treat their customers. To get the latter wrong would be disastrous. The response to customers needs to be quick and effective.

My car is really good. It is economical enough to be defensible for one old guy on his own. It can seat seven and sometimes does. When I visited Fia's daughter on the Isle of Lewis, we all went out in one car, all seven of us and the dog. My grand daughters love sitting 'in the boot'.

VW is just another cynical money grabbing corporation; they do, however, produce cars that people want to buy. I hope they survive.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#30 Post by Alan H » September 28th, 2015, 10:44 am

Manuel wrote:It's a scandal. I thought it might ruin VW but it seems as though they'll manage it. I know it's not the full financial story but I thought this was interesting, as even with this catastrophe it reads as though the company might even manage to stay in profit, at least in the short term.

Financially the consequences are unlikely to be very pretty. VW has already set aside €6.5bn (£4.7bn) to cover the costs of recalls, and pay for efforts to rebuild the brand. For a company which made a net profit of €10.8bn last year, that is not an insurmountable figure. However, the real total may end up being considerably higher. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34347741

It would be amusing (although not for the motorist) if after recall, all these devices were taken out and the cars all subsequently failed the emissions tests. That surely would be a catastrophe for VW.
I suspect there is no device to take out - it'll simply be different software. If it was a device bolted on somewhere, I think it'd have been spotted before now.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#31 Post by Dave B » September 28th, 2015, 1:34 pm

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:Seems the trick was very clever, if you want to call a cheat that.

The software monitored the steering column. If the engine was running and the steering column was not moving in the expected "road" conditions then this was interpretted as a standing engine test condition and the software adjusted accordingly. So it might have been switching back and forth whilst the car was idling at the lights etc.
Ah. Surely under type testing it'd be on a rolling road so the EMS would know it was moving even if the wheel wasn't being used, so it probably wouldn't do the same at lights. But is the MOT a static test? Do MOT stations have a rolling road?
Dunno what the "type testing" for official rating involves.

The MoT uses a rolling road to test the brakes, engine emmission tests (when I have been involved) are all done static. Not really respresentative because I bet static and road engine environments are quite different. There was a test where diesels had to be held at high revs on the MoT, something the owners were not happy with, but I guess that was to estabkish something like road conditions.

Now, how did the software monitor the steering column? Has to be some kind of device involved there. Other than this fiddle what is the necessity of such monitoring? I would have thought info from the gearbox could have been used, engine management needs to kniw what gear tge vehicle is in.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Tetenterre
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#32 Post by Tetenterre » October 1st, 2015, 9:03 am

A couple of years ago, Louise got an Audi A1 diesel: we queried the particulate & NOx emissions and were assured that it was fitted wit ha device that filters them effectively. We'll see...
Dave B wrote: Now, how did the software monitor the steering column?
Modern vehicles have stability control; one of the things it monitors is the steering. (You need to disable it when driving on icy roads, etc. where your steering wheel use may be "abnormal".)
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#33 Post by Dave B » October 1st, 2015, 6:12 pm

Wonder if those who bought one of these cars, basing their choice on a published specification, will have any right of compensation on a "goods not as described" basis?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Altfish
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#34 Post by Altfish » October 10th, 2015, 9:39 am

Just put my VIN No. into VW's website...

Dear Volkswagen customer,

We regret to inform you that the Type EA 189 engine built into your vehicle with the Vehicle Identification Number xxx you submitted, is affected by software that may cause discrepancies in the values for oxides of nitrogen (NOx) during dynometer runs. Your car is safe from a technical standpoint and roadworthy.

We are very sorry to have broken your trust and are working at full speed to find a technical solution. Volkswagen will cover the cost relating directly to this repair.

We will be in touch with you directly to explain what steps are required. We'll do any necessary rectification work at our cost.


Yours faithfully,

Volkswagen.

thundril
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#35 Post by thundril » October 10th, 2015, 1:01 pm

Nick wrote: Oh perleeease! At least have the courtesy to reply in a meaningful way.
Can I have a go?
I read the exclamatory 'good grief' as exasperation at the repeated use of a strawman argument.
Here is what you wrote:
Looks like VW will be hammered, and maybe some employees hammered too. And fair enough. The rules seem to be clear. But don't forget that the control of omissions is so much easier in the capitalist west than under socialist governments. Russia? China? Horrendously polluting! Nearer to home? VW may be bad (or rather devious) but when half of Germany was socialist, their non-capitalist alternative? The Trabant. Spectacularly polluting. It really pays not to have poacher and game-keeper on the same side.
There are three separate but related concepts you don't seem to have grasped, despite the several years you have been involved in political debates of one kind or another.
What are these three points?
1)If you are in a position where you feel you must defend someone who has done something wrong, it simply doesn't do to point at a worse criminal.

2)There are very few people in the world who today are proposing adoption of the Stalinist economic political model as an alternative to naked capitalism.

3) Amongst the regular contributors to TH, nobody believes that a Stalinist model is the only possible alternative to 'free market' political economic model., (Or maybe you do? If so, this is something we may be able to debate, with some chance of at least some mutual comprehension.)

Try to free yourself from addiction to the strawman fallacy. It's one of the weakest rhetorical devices around, and it makes you look much less intelligent than we know you to actually be.

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#36 Post by Dave B » October 10th, 2015, 2:51 pm

Seems it is all the fault of a small bunch of software engineers..
Volkswagen Boss Blames Software Engineers For ScandalYeah, like a couple of software engineers would be allowed make such a strategic level decision!

This is also interesting
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

thundril
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#37 Post by thundril » October 10th, 2015, 5:31 pm

Interesting indeed, Dave.
This distinction between behaving morally and keeping to the rules... It's tricky, innit?

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#38 Post by Alan H » October 10th, 2015, 7:52 pm

thundril wrote:
Nick wrote: Oh perleeease! At least have the courtesy to reply in a meaningful way.
Can I have a go?
I read the exclamatory 'good grief' as exasperation at the repeated use of a strawman argument.
Here is what you wrote:
Looks like VW will be hammered, and maybe some employees hammered too. And fair enough. The rules seem to be clear. But don't forget that the control of omissions is so much easier in the capitalist west than under socialist governments. Russia? China? Horrendously polluting! Nearer to home? VW may be bad (or rather devious) but when half of Germany was socialist, their non-capitalist alternative? The Trabant. Spectacularly polluting. It really pays not to have poacher and game-keeper on the same side.
There are three separate but related concepts you don't seem to have grasped, despite the several years you have been involved in political debates of one kind or another.
What are these three points?
1)If you are in a position where you feel you must defend someone who has done something wrong, it simply doesn't do to point at a worse criminal.

2)There are very few people in the world who today are proposing adoption of the Stalinist economic political model as an alternative to naked capitalism.

3) Amongst the regular contributors to TH, nobody believes that a Stalinist model is the only possible alternative to 'free market' political economic model., (Or maybe you do? If so, this is something we may be able to debate, with some chance of at least some mutual comprehension.)

Try to free yourself from addiction to the strawman fallacy. It's one of the weakest rhetorical devices around, and it makes you look much less intelligent than we know you to actually be.
+1
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#39 Post by Alan H » October 12th, 2015, 11:29 am

I think there's a good degree of unnecessary scaremongering in this: the testing work has to be funded by car manufacturers but the core finding by Government has to be completely independent of that and any drive by the Government towards commercialism strongly resisted: ‘Dieselgate’ scandal: government regulator receives over £80 million from auto industry in past 10 years
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#40 Post by Alan H » November 24th, 2015, 9:12 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#41 Post by Dave B » November 24th, 2015, 9:22 pm

I still can't stop thinking there is some sort of offence under the descriptions act. If someone buys an item because of the manufacturer's stated specificstion and the item does not meet thst spec,, due to the deliberate actions of the manufacturer, surely a crime has been committed?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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