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Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
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Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#1 Post by Alan H » September 22nd, 2015, 12:09 am

Your Guide To Dieselgate: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe
Yes, it’s a catastrophe. There’s no other way to describe the allegations from the Environmental Protection Agency that Volkswagen cheated on their emissions tests with nearly half a million TDI diesel cars. What’s at stake here? Potentially billions in fines, criminal prosecutions, VW’s reputation, and maybe even the future of diesel in the U.S.

On Friday the EPA said VW found a way to circumvent emissions requirements during testing with a “defeat device” that lets the TDI cars detect when they are being tested and then emit far less than normal.

When the device is not working, and the cars are operating in regular driving, they emit 10 to 40 times more than the allowable legal levels of certain pollutants.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#2 Post by Nick » September 22nd, 2015, 1:31 am

..and your point is....?

lewist
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#3 Post by lewist » September 22nd, 2015, 9:06 am

Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
Given I drive one of the said cars, it would be interesting to know if it is the same here. I've always thought the VW 1.6tdi engine was relatively clean but is it really? It's certainly economical but emissions?
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#4 Post by Dave B » September 22nd, 2015, 9:53 am

Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
My interpretation is that it is another facet of what is rotten, dishonest and criminal in business and industry. The car industry's technical version of the crimes of the finance industry.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#5 Post by Alan H » September 22nd, 2015, 10:31 am

Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
WTF?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#6 Post by Dave B » September 22nd, 2015, 11:47 am

Decided to scrap my last, too much of a personal attack, if relevant IMO.

Why are you often surprised when Alan highlights a matter for comment, Nick? By now you should know Alan's "agenda", why not simply offer your opinion like the rest of us?

As I said, another instance of corporate criminality, don't you agree?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#7 Post by Nick » September 22nd, 2015, 11:10 pm

lewist wrote:
Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
Given I drive one of the said cars, it would be interesting to know if it is the same here. I've always thought the VW 1.6tdi engine was relatively clean but is it really? It's certainly economical but emissions?
Apparently, no, because our testing procedures are different. But I don't claim any special knowledge.

Nick
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#8 Post by Nick » September 22nd, 2015, 11:11 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
WTF?
Oh, I just thought you might have one.... :wink:

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#9 Post by Alan H » September 22nd, 2015, 11:40 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:..and your point is....?
WTF?
Oh, I just thought you might have one.... :wink:
I'd have thought it was self-explanatory and obvious.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#10 Post by Dave B » September 23rd, 2015, 1:01 pm

No opinion on corporate criminality then, Nick?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

lewist
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#11 Post by lewist » September 23rd, 2015, 4:52 pm

I have to say I have liked the VW cars I have owned and the present Touran is very good.

Trust the company? I don't think so. They are only out to make money. The difficulty with these cars is that they are pretty expensive.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#12 Post by Alan H » September 23rd, 2015, 5:22 pm

VW scandal caused nearly 1m tonnes of extra pollution, analysis shows
Volkswagen’s rigging of emissions tests for 11m cars means they may be responsible for nearly 1m tonnes of air pollution every year, roughly the same as the UK’s combined emissions for all power stations, vehicles, industry and agriculture, a Guardian analysis suggests.
I think there are a few assumptions in that but it does show the scale of the problem: it's not just a wee bit extra smoke...

Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn quits over diesel emissions scandal
Volkswagen’s chief executive, Martin Winterkorn, has quit after relentless speculation about his future amid the diesel emissions test scandal.

Winterkorn said on Wednesday he took full responsibility for the scandal, in which the company admitted that 11m cars were installed with a defeat device that reduced emissions under test conditions only, but he denied personal wrongdoing.

The company’s stock market value has fallen dramatically since the admission this week. As he resigned, Winterkorn described the situation facing the carmaker as a “grave crisis”.

Volkswagen faces up to £12bn in fines and is the subject of multiple investigations after the US Environmental Protection Agency accused it of manipulating tests on 18 September.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#13 Post by Dave B » September 23rd, 2015, 5:26 pm

There was a comment in a radio item that this may account for the discrepancy noted by monitors - more actual polution than estimates predicted.

Will try to chase that up.

Later: so much stuff on main theme can't find peripheral stuff.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#14 Post by Nick » September 24th, 2015, 12:49 am

Dave B wrote:No opinion on corporate criminality then, Nick?
How kind of you to ask! :D

Looks like VW will be hammered, and maybe some employees hammered too. And fair enough. The rules seem to be clear. But don't forget that the control of omissions is so much easier in the capitalist west than under socialist governments. Russia? China? Horrendously polluting! Nearer to home? VW may be bad (or rather devious) but when half of Germany was socialist, their non-capitalist alternative? The Trabant. Spectacularly polluting. It really pays not to have poacher and game-keeper on the same side.

Of course, we'll just have to continue to guess Alan's opinion.... :wink:

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Alan H
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#15 Post by Alan H » September 24th, 2015, 9:44 am

Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:No opinion on corporate criminality then, Nick?
How kind of you to ask! :D

Looks like VW will be hammered, and maybe some employees hammered too. And fair enough. The rules seem to be clear. But don't forget that the control of omissions is so much easier in the capitalist west than under socialist governments. Russia? China? Horrendously polluting! Nearer to home? VW may be bad (or rather devious) but when half of Germany was socialist, their non-capitalist alternative? The Trabant. Spectacularly polluting. It really pays not to have poacher and game-keeper on the same side.

Of course, we'll just have to continue to guess Alan's opinion.... :wink:
Good grief, Nick.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#16 Post by Dave B » September 24th, 2015, 4:27 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:No opinion on corporate criminality then, Nick?
How kind of you to ask! :D

Looks like VW will be hammered, and maybe some employees hammered too. And fair enough. The rules seem to be clear. But don't forget that the control of omissions is so much easier in the capitalist west than under socialist governments. Russia? China? Horrendously polluting! Nearer to home? VW may be bad (or rather devious) but when half of Germany was socialist, their non-capitalist alternative? The Trabant. Spectacularly polluting. It really pays not to have poacher and game-keeper on the same side.

Of course, we'll just have to continue to guess Alan's opinion.... :wink:
Good grief, Nick.
+1
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#17 Post by Dave B » September 24th, 2015, 5:07 pm

Lewis, does the tax on your car depend on its CO2 output? If so does this scandal affect the official CO2 rating for VW diesels or is it only the NOx?

If you have been paying a lower rate of tax due to a lie I hope the government don't ask for the balance!

Later: seems it is the NOx that is critical here
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#18 Post by Nick » September 25th, 2015, 12:33 am

Dave B wrote:[quote="Alan H]Good grief, Nick.
+1[/quote][/quote]You ask my opinion and just reply with +1? Oh perleeease! At least have the courtesy to reply in a meaningful way.

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Dave B
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#19 Post by Dave B » September 25th, 2015, 12:38 pm

Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:[quote="Alan H]Good grief, Nick.
+1
[/quote]You ask my opinion and just reply with +1? Oh perleeease! At least have the courtesy to reply in a meaningful way.[/quote][/quote][/quote]Let's just say I don't agree with your opinion in that you bring in comparisons that have nothing to do with the matter in habd. How other regimes deal with it is not really relevant, but a typical response from you, "Could be worse is the socialists/communists/unions... were running it. True, could be worse if the far right/de-regulated industry was running it as well - but none of that is relevant here either.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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jaywhat
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Re: Volkswagen's Diesel Cheating Catastrophe

#20 Post by jaywhat » September 25th, 2015, 1:17 pm

Apologies and sackings are pointless - this is a criminal offence and there needs to be prosecutions. I would also expect other companies to be at the same game.

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