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Labour leadership election

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Labour leadership election

#1 Postby Alan H » August 22nd, 2015, 11:28 pm

I can't say I've really been following all the ups and downs of the campaign. It has been an unedifying spectacle at best, and gutter politics at worst (from all sides) but perhaps typical and symptomatic of what passes for politics these days, spurred on by what passes for the media these days.

There another three weeks to go. So far, there's been no credible opposition to the Tories devastatingly cruel - yet predictable - plans in the Commons and with Parliament sitting again in a few weeks, it could be sometime before whoever is elected gets to grips with his/her new job.

But even then, could it be the new Labour Leader simply leads a party that will be no more than Tory-lite, letting down vast swathes of those hardest hit by Tory policies - those, historically, it was supposed to represent and defend? Or will there actually be a credible opposition that does what an opposition is supposed to do: oppose?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Labour leadership election

#2 Postby Nick » August 23rd, 2015, 12:36 am

Alan H wrote:I can't say I've really been following all the ups and downs of the campaign. It has been an unedifying spectacle at best, and gutter politics at worst (from all sides) but perhaps typical and symptomatic of what passes for politics these days, spurred on by what passes for the media these days.

There another three weeks to go. So far, there's been no credible opposition to the Tories devastatingly cruel - yet predictable - plans in the Commons and with Parliament sitting again in a few weeks, it could be sometime before whoever is elected gets to grips with his/her new job.

But even then, could it be the new Labour Leader simply leads a party that will be no more than Tory-lite, letting down vast swathes of those hardest hit by Tory policies - those, historically, it was supposed to represent and defend? Or will there actually be a credible opposition that does what an opposition is supposed to do: oppose?
No. Labour is finished for years to come. Liz Kendall is too Blairite for Labour members (and fellow travellers); Corbyn has no credible policies to satisfy the electorate and will split the party in two.

Their best hope (which is faint to say the least) is that the Scots return from the SNP when they realise that the low price of oil makes SNP policies utterly undeliverable. But economics was never the Left's strongest suit.

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Alan H
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Re: Labour leadership election

#3 Postby Alan H » August 23rd, 2015, 1:04 am

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:But even then, could it be the new Labour Leader simply leads a party that will be no more than Tory-lite, letting down vast swathes of those hardest hit by Tory policies - those, historically, it was supposed to represent and defend? Or will there actually be a credible opposition that does what an opposition is supposed to do: oppose?
No. Labour is finished for years to come.
You could be right. And that does not bode well for any of us.

Liz Kendall is too Blairite for Labour members (and fellow travellers); Corbyn has no credible policies to satisfy the electorate and will split the party in two.
Well, you say that, but... he does seem to have rather a lot of support from a load of people who you'd expect to know what they're talking about, so maybe his policies are not as incredible as you seem to believe?

Jeremy Corbyn wins economists’ backing for anti-austerity policies
More than 40 leading economists, including a former adviser to the Bank of England, have made public their support for Jeremy Corbyn’s policies, dismissing claims that they are extreme, in a major boost to the leftwinger’s campaign to be leader.


And this by Simon Wren-Lewis, Professor of Economic Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, Oxford University, and a fellow of Merton College:People's QE and Corbyn’s QE. Although not entirely supportive, he does say:
So one day, this form of Corbyn’s QE could happen. But we need to get the idea of helicopter money, and the need for public investment and a National Investment Bank, accepted in their own right first. Putting the two ideas together right now is misconceived, and is in danger of discrediting two potentially good ideas.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Altfish
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Re: Labour leadership election

#4 Postby Altfish » August 23rd, 2015, 7:08 am

The only hope for Labour is that the Tories nasty streak will make them implode. They are already starting to do it but in the early days of a new parliament they can get away with it.
The trouble is that we need an effective opposition to hammer home the worst excesses of the Tories. We haven't got that although the SNP are tying.

It appears that Corbyn is going to win, I'm very doubtful he is electable BUT if the Tories keep supporting their rich mates and Osborne takes over from Cameron, Labour have a chance but only if they get their act together.

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jaywhat
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Re: Labour leadership election

#5 Postby jaywhat » August 23rd, 2015, 7:11 am

I have some hope in Corbyn and looking forward to seeing what is going to happen.

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Alan H
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Re: Labour leadership election

#6 Postby Alan H » August 23rd, 2015, 10:46 am

Altfish wrote:The only hope for Labour is that the Tories nasty streak will make them implode. They are already starting to do it but in the early days of a new parliament they can get away with it.[/qupte]I think that's a given. Remember there is a referendum on Europe to come... But it's a pity (although not unexpected) that they don't split over, say, hitting the poor, disabled and least fortunate in society. or housing.

The trouble is that we need an effective opposition to hammer home the worst excesses of the Tories. We haven't got that although the SNP are tying.
Indeed.

It appears that Corbyn is going to win, I'm very doubtful he is electable BUT if the Tories keep supporting their rich mates and Osborne takes over from Cameron, Labour have a chance but only if they get their act together.
If nothing else, he might make them focus on what their core values are. Some are forecasting a split in the Labour Party - that might be a good thing, but it could resign us to a few more Tory Parliaments and by the time Labour (or whatever) were electable, there might be precious little for them to do.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
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Re: Labour leadership election

#7 Postby thundril » August 23rd, 2015, 4:10 pm

Corbyn is attracting approval from people from across the political spectrum. ISTM that this is, at least in part, because he isn't trying to do what the 3 flavours of Tory have been doing for thirty years now. The general consensus of the expert pundits has been that you can only win by appealing to the 'swing voters', who (taken as a whole group, rather than actual people with divergent concerns) appear like a bunch of entirely selfish, immigrant-fearing, tax-worrying small-c conservatives. The party-centred electoral system is rigged to reinforce the belief that the only way to win power is to appeal to this demographic. And of course the actual (large C) Conservatives are better at being conservative than people who are merely pretending to be conservative for opportunist reasons.
Corbyn seems to be demonstrating that it is possible to stand against this corrupt, self-reinforcing stitch-up and still get support.
There are a few politicians, here and there, who care more for honesty and a clear statement of principles, than they do for winning 'power'. Corbyn is one such honest politician. David Davis, from the conservatives, seems to me like another such.
If (improbably) power ends up in the hands of men and women who don't actually desire power, this can only be a good thing.
Viva Zaphod Beeblebrox!

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Altfish
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Re: Labour leadership election

#8 Postby Altfish » August 26th, 2015, 12:47 pm

This is turning out to be a nightmare for Labour!

What does it say about a party that wants to run the country but can't even organise an internal election :deadhorse:

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Alan H
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Re: Labour leadership election

#9 Postby Alan H » August 26th, 2015, 12:52 pm

Altfish wrote:This is turning out to be a nightmare for Labour!

What does it say about a party that wants to run the country but can't even organise an internal election :deadhorse:
And of course, playing into the hands of the Tories.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
Posts: 3607
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: Labour leadership election

#10 Postby thundril » August 26th, 2015, 1:14 pm

The alternative, (becoming a watered down Tory party) has been tried since 1997, and it does indeed play straight into the hands of Toryism. What is better for the Tory political climate than a choice between three versions of Toryism?
I don't give a flying fuck which set of preening opportunists gets to stride the world stage for a few years.
If having 'power' means pandering to the timid, the selfish, the greedy and the xenophobic elements of our individual hearts, then I'm voting for someone who doesn't want to do that.
Party politics has so distorted the concept of electoral democracy that people have been hypnotised into believing there is something good about having 'their' party elected, even if it means giving up all the reasons why 'their' party formed in the first place.
Last election, I voted Green. If Corbyn gets to lead the Labour Party, they might get my vote next time. But I am NOT going to support, applaud, or vote for a Blairite party. If I wanted to be ruled by a bunch of Tories, I'd vote Tory.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Labour leadership election

#11 Postby Tetenterre » August 27th, 2015, 10:54 am

My favoured scenario:
* Corbyn gets elected, the Labour party implodes and splinters, leading to its permanent demise as a political force/farce.
* The "unopposed" Conservative party similarly implodes and splinters into smaller parties, leading to its permanent demise.
* The result is permanent coalition of smaller parties, having to co-operate and agree instead of this ridiculous confrontational system that serves nobody except the self-serving bastards in the HoC and their cronies.

But then, I've never been very politicially astute...
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

thundril
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Re: Labour leadership election

#12 Postby thundril » August 27th, 2015, 11:26 am

Tetenterre wrote:My favoured scenario:
. . . permanent coalition of smaller parties, having to co-operate and agree instead of this ridiculous confrontational system that serves nobody except the self-serving bastards in the HoC and their cronies.

Agreed, Tt, but I see the role of the political parties themselves as being ar the core of the problem.
I would like to see a system in which individual candidate is given some space (I think one sides of A4 should suffice) in which to state clearly his/her ethical, economic, political beliefs, plus membership of, or commitment to, any political, religious or economic oganisation. She can use up to banother five sides of A4 to speak about herself, her family, interests, skills, and whatever else she wants to say.This six-page document should be reproduced and distributed, at taxpayers' expense, to every voter.
Party, religious or corporate funding should be illegal, during election times. Party whipping, or other enticement to vote against the representative's stated principles, shouls likewise be illegal.
Once eloected, all the representative has to do is stick to his/her stated personal principles. That shouldn't be difficult, should it?

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Tetenterre
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Re: Labour leadership election

#13 Postby Tetenterre » August 27th, 2015, 12:25 pm

Nothing for me to disagree with there, Thundril.
thundril wrote:Once eloected, all the representative has to do is stick to his/her stated personal principles. That shouldn't be difficult, should it?
For a principled person, no, I wouldn't have thought so... :D
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Alan H
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Re: Labour leadership election

#14 Postby Alan H » August 31st, 2015, 7:50 pm

The usual journalistic incompetence or something else? Jeremy Corbyn mythbusting: What he really said vs what the papers say
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Labour leadership election

#15 Postby animist » August 31st, 2015, 8:43 pm

Tetenterre wrote:My favoured scenario:
* Corbyn gets elected, the Labour party implodes and splinters, leading to its permanent demise as a political force/farce.
* The "unopposed" Conservative party similarly implodes and splinters into smaller parties, leading to its permanent demise.
* The result is permanent coalition of smaller parties, having to co-operate and agree instead of this ridiculous confrontational system that serves nobody except the self-serving bastards in the HoC and their cronies.

But then, I've never been very politicially astute...
you are not astute because you are not in the political game, but I think your comments are pretty wise. I am in the ridiculous position of hoping for a Corbyn victory yet knowing that Labour will not likely win without some deal with whatever remains of the LibDems

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Nick
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Re: Labour leadership election

#16 Postby Nick » September 1st, 2015, 1:20 am

A deal with the Lib Dems? Corbyn won't even be able to make a deal with the Labour Party.

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Fia
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Re: Labour leadership election

#17 Postby Fia » September 7th, 2015, 10:06 pm

Discovered accidentally as my youngest didn't tell me she'd made this 7min youtube (though she gave me permission to share):



Very much from her young Scottish perspective although she's clearly trying hard not to be opinionated.
But it also exemplifies my oft-expressed hope that the future is in better hands.
(I'm mightily proud of her)

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Alan C.
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Re: Labour leadership election

#18 Postby Alan C. » September 7th, 2015, 10:34 pm

That's a different wee lass to the one that complained (incessantly) About the cold when she was here one October.
Bloody good on her though (thumbs up) the smilies aren't working now, grr!
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: Labour leadership election

#19 Postby Alan H » September 7th, 2015, 11:44 pm

What an engaging, thoughtful and intelligent young woman you have there Fia, and clearly very passionate about politics. Lang may her lum reek!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Labour leadership election

#20 Postby Fia » September 8th, 2015, 12:00 am

Lang may her, and her generations, lum reek indeed, Alan H. She's still always cold though Alan C.


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