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Migrants via the Tunnel

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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getreal
Posts: 4354
Joined: November 20th, 2008, 5:40 pm

Migrants via the Tunnel

#1 Post by getreal » July 30th, 2015, 10:29 pm

i had a look to see if this has already been raised, but I couldn't find anything. Please feel free to delete or merge if there is already a thread on the subject.

I am horrified at the plight of the migrants attempting to enter the UK via the tunnel. I am also sickened by the lack of any sense of urgency being shown by both the governments of the UK and Europe.

Why is there no real impetus to deal with this? The migrants (amongst them lone children and pregnant women) are being abandoned by the authorities and vilified by the press. They don't even have basic sanitation and the children and women are at great risk of violence and exploitation. Why can't the government see this?

Is it just me? Am I missing something?


I have written to my MP as I am so concerned about the issue.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#2 Post by Alan H » July 30th, 2015, 11:23 pm

It's a desperate and desperately complicated situation that certainly doesn't lend itself to being resolved by the usual media soundbites. But it's not just the press who is vilifying them.

But you're absolutely right: this is a humanitarian issue first and foremost, so whatever the long term solution, they must - despite any views as to whether they are deserving or just a criminal horde - treat them as the human beings they are.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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jaywhat
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#3 Post by jaywhat » July 31st, 2015, 7:01 am

Yes the whole thing is utterly desperate. What can anyone do?

lewist
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#4 Post by lewist » July 31st, 2015, 8:12 am

I too am disturbed by the images being portrayed. On GMS this morning it was again being stated that benefits were easy to get here. I find that very hard to believe.

These are human beings. The WM government is adamant it will not help in the way others do, displaying not a lack of empathy but contempt for the rights of these people.

One feels very helpless.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Ninny
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#5 Post by Ninny » July 31st, 2015, 8:59 am

I shall be voting for Jeremy Corbyn, and no, I don't think this response is in any way off-topic.

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animist
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#6 Post by animist » July 31st, 2015, 9:05 am

surely it is not just migrants via the tunnel which is the moral problem but all the migrants desperate to come to this land of opportunity. I don't have any answers, and like Ninny I would vote for Jeremy Corbyn ('cept that I vote Green now). The disparity between rich and poor nations is much greater than within the rich countries, and somehow there ought to be a solution - I see that a US businessman is proposing a separate state for migrants. All our politics and economics are skewed towards the wrong things, but the fact is that we remain citizens of particular nation states which compete to be or remain top nation in power or wealth, and I don't see a truly nationless community emerging any time soon

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Alan H
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#7 Post by Alan H » July 31st, 2015, 2:07 pm

It's all OK now. David 'call me Dave' Cameron got up early this morning and had a meeting that lasted a whole hour. He's going to put up some new fences, send in the dogs and build new car parks. Oh, and send more of those Johnny Foreigners back home where they belong.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#8 Post by thundril » July 31st, 2015, 3:32 pm

That's all right then. And Portugal, Belize, and various paradise islands in the Carribean and the Indian Ocean can start sending home their Johnny Forei... Oh, wait a minute. They're not foreigners, they're ex-pats! Different thing altogether!

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Alan H
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#9 Post by Alan H » July 31st, 2015, 3:49 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#10 Post by Dave B » July 31st, 2015, 6:16 pm

The only real solution to this problem lies in Africa.

Unfortunately the problem is so complex no viable solution is possible.

At the same time I do not see that Europe can absorb an endless sream of "refugees". Those whose life is under threat should have some priority but I am not so sure about those looking for a better job. Part of the solution there is to help Africa develop industry. China may be to blame in some respects, they do not train and employ locals for the infrastructure and agricultural projects - they import their own workers. This is a double whammy, those countries "aided" by the Chinese may loose jobs and resources that their growing populations need.

This, in turn, will have political repercussions in countries where equality, democracy and justice are not strong suites.

I fear it will get worse.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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getreal
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#11 Post by getreal » July 31st, 2015, 7:54 pm



If you listen to the media-including the "moderate media" you would be forgiven for thinking these were two different stories.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Altfish
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#12 Post by Altfish » July 31st, 2015, 8:43 pm

Dave B wrote:The only real solution to this problem lies in Africa.

Unfortunately the problem is so complex no viable solution is possible.

At the same time I do not see that Europe can absorb an endless sream of "refugees". Those whose life is under threat should have some priority but I am not so sure about those looking for a better job. Part of the solution there is to help Africa develop industry. China may be to blame in some respects, they do not train and employ locals for the infrastructure and agricultural projects - they import their own workers. This is a double whammy, those countries "aided" by the Chinese may loose jobs and resources that their growing populations need.

This, in turn, will have political repercussions in countries where equality, democracy and justice are not strong suites.

I fear it will get worse.
It does seem to be predominantly countries we've invaded or once ruled. We must have some responsibility for these people.
Aid has to be part of the answer, but aid that is monitored and actually goes to the people and projects that will help these nations. Not some intermediary who pockets 80%

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Dave B
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#13 Post by Dave B » July 31st, 2015, 9:10 pm

Altfish wrote:
Dave B wrote:The only real solution to this problem lies in Africa.

Unfortunately the problem is so complex no viable solution is possible.

At the same time I do not see that Europe can absorb an endless sream of "refugees". Those whose life is under threat should have some priority but I am not so sure about those looking for a better job. Part of the solution there is to help Africa develop industry. China may be to blame in some respects, they do not train and employ locals for the infrastructure and agricultural projects - they import their own workers. This is a double whammy, those countries "aided" by the Chinese may loose jobs and resources that their growing populations need.

This, in turn, will have political repercussions in countries where equality, democracy and justice are not strong suites.

I fear it will get worse.
It does seem to be predominantly countries we've invaded or once ruled. We must have some responsibility for these people.
Aid has to be part of the answer, but aid that is monitored and actually goes to the people and projects that will help these nations. Not some intermediary who pockets 80%
True, we parcelled up Africa with little or no regard for existing tribal and national boundaries. However enough time has passed for most political/national units to have, largely, sorted themselves out. Instead they have maintained artificial power units because it serves tge purposes of the "strong men". Some blame has to be laid on their shoukders, Mandella tried but he was one icon whose dream is fading fast.

We owe it to them in terms of helping sort out the core problems, but that corruption you mentioned makes them their own enemies in some ways.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Lord Muck oGentry
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#14 Post by Lord Muck oGentry » August 1st, 2015, 12:49 am


And, indeed, is it time for some facts about our benefits system?
https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number

For those who prefer not to cloud their judgement with facts*, the time may not yet be right.


* Look in their opinions for phrases such as driver, draw and factor.
What we can't say, we can't say and we can't whistle it either. — Frank Ramsey

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Alan H
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#15 Post by Alan H » August 1st, 2015, 12:54 am

Lord Muck oGentry wrote:

And, indeed, is it time for some facts about our benefits system?
https://www.gov.uk/apply-national-insurance-number

For those who prefer not to cloud their judgement with facts*, the time may not yet be right.


* Look in their opinions for phrases such as driver, draw and factor.
Looks like that was the wrong link, LMoG!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Lord Muck oGentry
Posts: 634
Joined: September 1st, 2007, 3:48 pm

Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#16 Post by Lord Muck oGentry » August 1st, 2015, 1:26 am

Alan H wrote:Looks like that was the wrong link, LMoG!
Well, my pistol may have missed fire, of course.
But I have linked, so far as I can see, to a gov.uk site showing that a NI no. is generally essential for claiming benefits and that is no easy matter for illegal immigrants to get benefits.
What we can't say, we can't say and we can't whistle it either. — Frank Ramsey

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#17 Post by Alan H » August 1st, 2015, 9:30 am

Lord Muck oGentry wrote:
Alan H wrote:Looks like that was the wrong link, LMoG!
Well, my pistol may have missed fire, of course.
But I have linked, so far as I can see, to a gov.uk site showing that a NI no. is generally essential for claiming benefits and that is no easy matter for illegal immigrants to get benefits.
Ah. I understand now.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#18 Post by animist » August 1st, 2015, 10:34 am

Dave B wrote:
Altfish wrote:
Dave B wrote:The only real solution to this problem lies in Africa.

Unfortunately the problem is so complex no viable solution is possible.

At the same time I do not see that Europe can absorb an endless sream of "refugees". Those whose life is under threat should have some priority but I am not so sure about those looking for a better job. Part of the solution there is to help Africa develop industry. China may be to blame in some respects, they do not train and employ locals for the infrastructure and agricultural projects - they import their own workers. This is a double whammy, those countries "aided" by the Chinese may loose jobs and resources that their growing populations need.

This, in turn, will have political repercussions in countries where equality, democracy and justice are not strong suites.

I fear it will get worse.
It does seem to be predominantly countries we've invaded or once ruled. We must have some responsibility for these people.
Aid has to be part of the answer, but aid that is monitored and actually goes to the people and projects that will help these nations. Not some intermediary who pockets 80%
True, we parcelled up Africa with little or no regard for existing tribal and national boundaries. However enough time has passed for most political/national units to have, largely, sorted themselves out. Instead they have maintained artificial power units because it serves tge purposes of the "strong men". Some blame has to be laid on their shoukders, Mandella tried but he was one icon whose dream is fading fast.

We owe it to them in terms of helping sort out the core problems, but that corruption you mentioned makes them their own enemies in some ways.
I don't think it helps much to talk of "responsibility" - what is important is to get some policy within the rich countries for dealing with what will be a growing problem. Space for migrants to create a new society within existing rich countries is all I can think of - very utopian of course ("utopia" means "nowhere"!) but my hunch is that something like this will eventually be tried. Of course, such a space for a new life must be more than Australian-style detention centres

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Dave B
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#19 Post by Dave B » August 1st, 2015, 11:32 am

You hit the nail by using "Utopian" in some ways.

Unless this problem is cured at source there will be a near endless stream of migrants from the poorer countries. There is a limit and one perfectly possible future is that the people, by voting in anti-immigration political parties, will "take matters into their own hands" if said immigrants seriously challenge their quality of life.

Humanists and those of the strict Christian ethic are well in the minority.

How one does this, short of assasinating/executing every corrupt politician and official I am not sure what one can do. Perhaps the only other path is to find a way of building Africa's self reliance in a way that the corrupt cannot get their take - ideas?

The Chinese ethic is to not interfere in any country's sovereign integrity (yesh, right) and so long as they get their minerals/food why should they care what the host government does to its people? The west has to observe human rights wherever they are (or are not) theortically applicable. Those countries with the worst records get the least aid and may therefore source the most desperate emigrants.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: Migrants via the Tunnel

#20 Post by animist » August 2nd, 2015, 12:12 pm

Dave B wrote:You hit the nail by using "Utopian" in some ways.

Unless this problem is cured at source there will be a near endless stream of migrants from the poorer countries. There is a limit and one perfectly possible future is that the people, by voting in anti-immigration political parties, will "take matters into their own hands" if said immigrants seriously challenge their quality of life.

Humanists and those of the strict Christian ethic are well in the minority.
it is surely even more utopian to take the line you suggest than the one I do. Remember that the migrants come from the Middle East as well as Africa, and reflect the violence of the latter region. It is extremely unlikely that this violence, and the poverty of most the countries of "export", are going to be solved "at source". The European Union is far more able to work some sort of solution than are the disparate states and failed states of the south, even if this does risk the growth of European extremist parties of the right - which are there already. Some sort of separate but viable entity in some parts of the EU which would house migrants is the only way that I can see to cope with and limit this flow of people from poor areas to rich - it will not stop it, of course

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