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Death, funeral and humanism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#61 Post by Alan H » November 19th, 2014, 8:07 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Dave B wrote:Same old, same old . . .
YES, the same old same old Truth doesn't change . Only in Humanism does truth change or is swept under the rug in hopes it wont poke its head out .
:laughter:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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YouCanCallMeDave
Posts: 112
Joined: November 4th, 2014, 10:35 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#62 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 8:39 pm

Alan H wrote:
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Dave B wrote:Same old, same old . . .
YES, the same old same old Truth doesn't change . Only in Humanism does truth change or is swept under the rug in hopes it wont poke its head out .
:laughter:
Truth shouldn't be something to laugh over ; its supposed to be everyone sincere quest as opposed to believing in things that logically cannot ever occur like human personality coming from rocks, planets, and hydrogen gas. However, Humanism DOES have the benefit of coinciding well with Ones chosen lifestyles since 'theres no God to spoil the fun' . Look up my Friend ... that's where the truth is : :pointlaugh:

Maria Mac
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Posts: 9268
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:34 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#63 Post by Maria Mac » November 19th, 2014, 8:59 pm

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:logically cannot ever occur like human personality coming from rocks, planets, and hydrogen gas.
Jesus wept! Now I know you're lying when you claim to have read Dawkins. Care to explain what you think the word 'logic' means?

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YouCanCallMeDave
Posts: 112
Joined: November 4th, 2014, 10:35 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#64 Post by YouCanCallMeDave » November 19th, 2014, 9:03 pm

Athena wrote:
YouCanCallMeDave wrote:logically cannot ever occur like human personality coming from rocks, planets, and hydrogen gas.
Jesus wept! Now I know you're lying when you claim to have read Dawkins. Care to explain what you think the word 'logic' means?
Not until you explain what you mean about Jesus weeping, and, how you 'know' (first hand, without doubt) I haven't read Dawkins ?

Maria Mac
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Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#65 Post by Maria Mac » November 19th, 2014, 9:15 pm

Please yourself then. If you'd read a serious book on evolution you wouldn't be characterising it in that idiotic way. Which ones are you claiming to have read?

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#66 Post by Compassionist » November 19th, 2014, 11:29 pm

YouCanCallMeDave - you keep failing to respond to my post. So, here it is again:

Do you have any authenticated audio and video recording to prove your claims about death-bed conversions of atheists to Christianity? I knew someone who had left Islam but returned to Islam on her death-bed as she was scared of going to the Islamic hell. Just because she did that does that prove that all non-Musims, including you, are going to hell forever? No, it does not. Analogously, someone becoming a Christian on their death-bed does not prove the claims of Christianity to be true. What irrefutable proofs do you have that the Biblical claims are true? You have not provided us with any yet.

John 14:12 (English Standard Version of the Bible) states: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." So, given that there are billions of Christians on Earth, why aren't they raising billions of dead people? According to the Bible, Jesus raised several dead people back to life, so, why haven't billions of Christians raised many billions from the dead? Such resurrected humans would prove the Biblical claims to be true.

Also, I am afraid you are failing to follow what the Bible says. In 1 Peter 3:15 the New International Version of the Bible states: "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect". You are not being gentle, nor are you being respectful and you have not explained the reason for the hope that you have.

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Alan H
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Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#67 Post by Alan H » November 19th, 2014, 11:33 pm

:popcorn:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#68 Post by Dave B » November 20th, 2014, 10:13 am

Alan H wrote::popcorn:
I'll join you, Alan, this could be a long feature - got any of that extra sugared, over fizzy, chemical ridden stuff called "cola"? No, OK, plain water it is then.

:popcorn:
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Maria Mac
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:34 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#69 Post by Maria Mac » November 20th, 2014, 11:06 am

YouCanCallMeDave wrote:
Altfish wrote:When will you answer...

WHO CREATED YOUR CREATOR??
This is the primary misconception out of ignorance that a typical professed Atheist often brings up ; he thinks because the Creator created everything in our finite Universe that the Creator therefore must have a Creator (and so on .....) .
It isn't a misconception, it is a point that you are missing in spectacular fashion, which is that if this 'creator' of your imagination doesn't need a first 'cause' then you cannot logically and consistently argue that the universe itself needs a first cause and, indeed, you cannot.
As for THIS question : ONLY things and events that COME INTO EXISTENCE from (infinitism to finitism)
require a Creator or First Cause. Because an Infinite Source IS the FIRST Source or Cause, that Source doesn't require another First Cause because that Source IS FIRST. There is only 2 possibilities : Either the Universe is eternal and thus requires no Cause (which modern science has proven is NOT so , because its proven our Universe had a beginning) , or, there is a First uncaused Cause to the Universe coming into existence from nothing
Let's look at this 'argument' - perhaps if I set it out as a syllogism you'll see what's wrong with it.

P1: Only things and events that COME INTO EXISTENCE from (infinitism to finitism) require a Creator or First Cause.
P2: God is the infinite source
C: Therefore God doesn't require a first cause.

Your first premise is an idea that appeals to you but actually there is nothing to suggest that this "first uncaused cause" has to be a creator god or that a higher intelligence was required for anything - you certainly haven't made a case for the existence of a creator. Just stating that this creator of yours is an 'infinite source', which is your second premise, is an assertion with nothing to back it up and neither of these two assertions lead logically to your conclusion.
Summary : Our Creator of finitism must be over, above, beyond , in charge of all that the Creator brought into existence and thus it requires him to be INFINITE and ETERNAL. Such a Creator must be bigger than what he created just like a Painter is to his Painting. Our Creator has always existed and didn't require someone/something to bring about his existence --- he always was and is .
:yawn: Says you. When are you going to learn that just repeating stuff over and over doesn't make it a stronger argument?
If you don't like that then explain how finite material, chemicals, laws of science, non-changing razor edge precise life enabling parameters, etc... came to exist from Materials which weren't even in existence yet ?

Why should we spend our time educating you when there are websites and books devoted to the subject? This is a discussion forum, not a teaching forum. Seek out the answers to your questions from serious books and websites like Talk Origins, then come back and explain why you think it's wrong and we'll see if we can have courteous debate on the subject.
And-or explain how a Force which is non intelligent / non personal / without a Will created things that exude the intelligent / the personal / information / and non material entities including a Will, logic, reason, abstract thinking, love, etc... ?
I couldn't explain how a non-intelligent, non-personal and without-a-will Force could create anything but then nobody is claiming that this is what happened. How can you ask such a daft question?

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Altfish
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Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#70 Post by Altfish » November 20th, 2014, 4:32 pm

What I don't understand about all these creator gods, is why do they demand worship from their creations?

I mean, if (and it's a bloody massive 'if') I were this god that "Dave" alludes to, if I'd created the earth, stars, all living things, oh and the firmament; why would I want my creation to waste their time bowing down to me and paying homage? Why would I be in the slightest bit interested in what sort of sex they had and with who? Why would I be hung up about graven images?
I'm sure I'd be more interested in sorting out Ebola, child poverty, war and conflict.

No, the god that you bow down to "Dave" is one weird cookie

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Alan H
Posts: 24047
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Death, funeral and humanism

#71 Post by Alan H » November 20th, 2014, 4:59 pm

Altfish wrote:What I don't understand about all these creator gods, is why do they demand worship from their creations?
Because they are lonely egoists?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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