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Gaza

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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animist
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Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Gaza

#1 Post by animist » July 26th, 2014, 4:03 pm

are the Israelis complete idiots as well as land-grabbing murderers? Three Israelis were murdered by persons unknown; as a result a young Palestinian was burned to death in retaliation and, on the unproven claim that Hamas was responsible for the original crime, a huge bombardment, the latest of many such over the years, has gone on for several weeks. Although the Israelis have lost very few lives compared with the Palestinians, over ten times the number of Israelis who died in the original incident have now met their end. What sort of victory is this?

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jaywhat
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Re: Gaza

#2 Post by jaywhat » July 27th, 2014, 10:31 am

My sister (in Aleppo) says that journalists are now comparing destruction in Gaza with her town - must be bad then.

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#3 Post by Dave B » July 27th, 2014, 11:24 am

jaywhat wrote:My sister (in Aleppo) says that journalists are now comparing destruction in Gaza with her town - must be bad then.
Yes, a BBC correspondent said, this am, that the level of destruction in one area was as bad as Syria.

The asymmetry of weapons is a big factor. There were no rockets or mortars during the recent "cease fire" which makes Hamas' claim that other groups are also involved a bit shaky. If Israel were to use ballistic rockets (as Hamas does) instead of "smart" ones I think the civilian death count in Gaza would be even higher. Ballistic rockets are fairly crude "wet-finger-in-the-wind-navigation" devices that might land somewhere near their specific target. If you are lucky.

The Gaza Palestinians are suffering as much because of Hamas' actions as anything else in terms of the conflict itself. In terms of the reason for the conflict - I lay that firmly at Israel's door. Though, perhaps, the actions of the UN and the British government between 1945 and 1948 had something to do with it. But there was no other real option than to allow Israel to be formed as a separate nation at that time, integration then was utterly impossible.

The later forced expansions of Israeli territory have only served to reinforce the sense of injustice in the Palestinian mind and, thus, the conflict. The US are the biggest hypocrites in this situation, there is far more they could do to alleviate matters by applying pressure on Israel. I'll not hold my breath though.

ADDED LATER: I forgot to mention that I think the Islamic sense of martyrdom does not help here - "dying for the cause" has a whole different dimension, and they often do not bother about who does the dying it seems, their own civilians are not immune.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Gaza

#4 Post by Alan H » July 27th, 2014, 11:34 am

The inimitable Jon Snow:

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#5 Post by Dave B » July 27th, 2014, 12:26 pm

Brings home the human dimension that the politicians and fundamentalists only seem to make mouth noises about.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

petemster
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Re: Gaza

#6 Post by petemster » July 27th, 2014, 5:36 pm

.

Hey Animist,

You are a brave man. This is a public forum. Don't you know that M15 have had to go into
their "Terrorist" cabinet and update your file?
Have you had the knock on your door yet? Has your computer been tampered with lately?

For what it's worth, I share your sense of outrage at this situation.
The latest reported casualty figures were: 30 Israeli soldiers dead, and 1000 Gazan citizens killed.

I also agree with your understanding of the reason for this Israeli action: a predictable,
punative action in retaliation for the kidnap and murder of three young Israeli men.
Basically I think it's an Israeli attempt to teach the Gazans a lesson they won't forget.
If so, it won't work, and that's what makes them, or at least the Likud element, the "idiots"
that you imply.

It's disturbing that Netanyahu has recently called for Israel to be declared a "Jewish State."
Like any rational person I'm horrified by the idea of any state or country being non-secular.
My views apply to any religion, of course, be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whatever,
Isn't it fundamentally illogical and dishonest to claim a part of the planet for only Jews
while also claiming that Jews have a right to live in all other places, e.g. USA or UK?
Or do they just mean that all residents would have to abide by "Jewish Law" and customs?
Could a Muslim live under Jewish law? Conversely, could a Jew live under Sharia Law?

The Jewish friends of Israel don't simply live in these other places, of course. They actually
dictate their foreign policy in matters concerning Israel. This is done through powerful lobbies.
In the USA it's the American Israel Public Affairs Committee; in the UK it's just the "Israel lobby".
Basically they buy politicians of all and any political party.
For example, see - Peter Oborne: Inside Britain's Israel Lobby.

This is why the only people who could stop Israeli attrocities, the Americans, will maybe call
for "restraint" and "proportionate response," but will never take any real action.

I must confess that when Obama was first elected I had hopes for a change in policy.
How mistaken could I be? He collected his Nobel Peace Prize and continued business as usual.
For an excellent piece on Obama's attitude to Israel's situation see -
Robert Fisk: President's Fine Words May Not Address The Middle East's Real Needs.

So, is there a long-term solution? Is there a possibility for a Two State Solution? Who knows?

Pete M.

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Tetenterre
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Re: Gaza

#7 Post by Tetenterre » July 28th, 2014, 8:46 am

Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#8 Post by Dave B » July 28th, 2014, 9:27 am

A Jewish friend sent me that - unfortunately it is one of the sites I cannot hear the sound on.

Even more unfortunately one does not need the sound to understand the message.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Gaza

#9 Post by Alan H » July 28th, 2014, 10:34 am

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Gaza

#10 Post by Alan H » July 28th, 2014, 10:35 am

Dave B wrote:
A Jewish friend sent me that - unfortunately it is one of the sites I cannot hear the sound on.

Even more unfortunately one does not need the sound to understand the message.
Indeed. It is Andy Williams singing This Land is Mine.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
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Re: Gaza

#11 Post by animist » July 29th, 2014, 10:48 am

the elephant in the room is that Hamas seems to have little or no "solution" to the conflict beyond demanding the end of the Jewish state; this should happen but will not given the US support for Israel. But could Israel not simply rely on, and improve, the already quite effective Iron Dome system which intercepts most of the missiles? Or why not simply evacuate as many places as possible which, like Sderot, are within range of the rockets, while policing the no-man's-land created in order to prevent further infiltration?

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#12 Post by Dave B » July 29th, 2014, 1:20 pm

animist wrote:the elephant in the room is that Hamas seems to have little or no "solution" to the conflict beyond demanding the end of the Jewish state; this should happen but will not given the US support for Israel. But could Israel not simply rely on, and improve, the already quite effective Iron Dome system which intercepts most of the missiles? Or why not simply evacuate as many places as possible which, like Sderot, are within range of the rockets, while policing the no-man's-land created in order to prevent further infiltration?
There has been at least one Hamas spokesman who went on about the almost total blockade on goods into and out of Gaza. This could possibly be a "key" into the lock.

The major problem is that Israel is never going to agree to open borders and coasts until the Palestinians can be trusted not to import even better arms and missiles. What chances of that happening? Also I fGaza unlivable.

Also, as with many of these organisations, any number n Hamas spokespeople seem to have n separate agendas.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Gaza

#13 Post by Alan H » July 31st, 2014, 12:13 am

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Fia
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Re: Gaza

#14 Post by Fia » July 31st, 2014, 7:49 pm

That was a very interesting read, Alan. To a certain extent I think James O'Malley overthinks this.

Currently, as well as the many shocking reports and photos, I can't rid myself of the image of the grief stricken UN spokesman my bold
Chris Gunness, spokesman for the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, was being interviewed by al-Jazeera Arabic on Wednesday about the shelling of one of the organisation's schools in Gaza, in which at least 15 people died and scores were injured. The school was crammed with families who had fled their homes after warnings from the Israeli military to leave or be bombed.
The Israelis, some of whom have deliberately created provocative settlements in disputed territory, who have herded the Palestinians into packed enclaves, say these horrific civilian deaths over the last few weeks are justified to counter the "terrorists". Really? Although Mr O'Malley warns us against using numbers, this collateral damage is mostly civilian, far too many of whom are terrified women and children. Who are the terrorists and who are the freedom fighters? Yes there are good arguments on both sides. Yet it is currently Israel who is committing war crimes, as I gather the US have just acknowledged...

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#15 Post by Dave B » July 31st, 2014, 8:07 pm

That UN spokesman was a very strong image of the despair that caring people also feel over Gaza.

It seems that the Whitehouse statement might have been misreported (nothing unusual) since America did not actually name Israel as the people who "shelled" the schools and hospital.
["]The United States condemns the shelling of a UNRWA school in Gaza, which reportedly killed and injured innocent Palestinians – including children – and UN humanitarian workers," the White House said.
Origin
I know nothing of this source but, at the moment, can't seem to find any known reliable sources on this.

So the act was, rightly, condemned but does not apportion blame to either side. Will we hear the result of any forensic analysis of the remains of the shells/missiles from the site? I doubt it.

I fear that the "fog of war" and knee-jerk reporting are still doing their best to make sure the picture is unclear.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#16 Post by Dave B » July 31st, 2014, 10:16 pm

Seems that the story has firmed up this evening and the specific blame may have been laid at Israel's door by America. But the Israelis are still claiming that missiles were launched from near the school.

I will give the Israelis credit that they have trained all their spokespeople to keep spouting the same thing over and over again - but then one would expect that. How much can we trust Hamas' statements?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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animist
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Re: Gaza

#17 Post by animist » August 1st, 2014, 7:15 pm

just watching the news about Israeli hysteria over a captured soldier makes them seem nuttier than ever. They apparently can cope with quite a few soldiers killed, but one captured - shame! :laughter:

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#18 Post by Dave B » August 1st, 2014, 7:43 pm

animist wrote:just watching the news about Israeli hysteria over a captured soldier makes them seem nuttier than ever. They apparently can cope with quite a few soldiers killed, but one captured - shame! :laughter:
Not sure that it is funny, bloody sad - that's the whole situation.

One supposes that being killed in any kind of violent military encounter is part of the job. Being captured can seem like a very different thing to different people.

To the captured persons friends and colleagues, they just want to get him back. The captured person can be used as a hostage and bargaining piece - as happened before when hundreds of Palestinians had to be released to get one Israeli soldier back, and that took years to achieve. Depending on who is captured the intelligence people may not be happy.

Think of the extremes that the Yanks have gone to recover their people - though they try to make political theatre out of rescues that sometimes leaves them with egg on their faces.

So we are back to the usual, "You started it!" situation on both sides. I mentioned the Islamic martyr complex before, still think this is a case in point where Hamas is concerned, they are never going to win against Israel in a military sense - just as the IRA were never going to win against the British government. The international rules of engagement are in the favour of Israel, especially since the Hamas rockets are random weapons aimed at civilians - that they mostly fail to kill anyone is a bit of a moot point. Israel is not bound to answer at the same level, if they did even more Palestinian civilians would probably be killed.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Dave B
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Re: Gaza

#19 Post by Dave B » August 1st, 2014, 8:48 pm

A point was raised during Any Questions that occurred to me a few days ago but then slipped out of memory.

Are the Israelis placing their future at stake considering the current state of the Near/Middle East at the moment? Fundamental/militant Islamism is on the upswing in some countries at the moment and, when the have all finished fighting one another, will they turn their attention to Israel?

This is a case where, strangely, countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are almost Israel's allies - neither of those countries wishes the Muslim Brotherhood nor any Al Q type group to succeed and the same goes for most of the Gulf States. OTOH it might be a good strategy for them to ensure that Israel is "kept occupied".

A lot will depend on America, I just hope that they do not get involved any more than they are already.

Western policies over the past hundred years or two are largely to blame for the current situation (though a similar situation would probably have arisen anyway - conflict seems built into Islamic history.) Before that the Ottoman Empire did not exactly help. The various peoples of the area spent a lot of time fighting amongst themselves and not uniting against the Turks.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Re: Gaza

#20 Post by Alan H » August 2nd, 2014, 12:42 am

Don't know what paper this was in:
2014-08-02_00h41_26.png
2014-08-02_00h41_26.png (907.86 KiB) Viewed 2566 times
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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