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Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#21 Post by Alan H » November 6th, 2014, 12:28 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and UK healthcare
Designed to meet the interests of corporations rather than patients, and imperative that it’s stopped in its tracks
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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getreal
Posts: 4354
Joined: November 20th, 2008, 5:40 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#22 Post by getreal » November 6th, 2014, 2:24 pm

I don't pretend to know a lot about this, but I believe it may have a huge impact on how the NHS provides services in Scotland.

They will be compelled to put contracts out to tender. As most of you know, there is very little private sector involvement in healthcare in Scotland.

I also read at it is possible for countries to ask for "exemptions" for certain services and that some countries have asked for some of their services to protected in his way. Alex Salmond asked Cameron to put in such an exemption for the scotish NHS and he refused to do so.

The GMO thing is done by me, though. Not enough exploitation of the potential of GMOs in the UK.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#23 Post by Alan H » November 6th, 2014, 2:35 pm

getreal wrote:I also read at it is possible for countries to ask for "exemptions" for certain services and that some countries have asked for some of their services to protected in his way. Alex Salmond asked Cameron to put in such an exemption for the scotish NHS and he refused to do so.
Indeed. The French have an exemption for their film industry.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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animist
Posts: 6522
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#24 Post by animist » November 6th, 2014, 3:49 pm

Alan H wrote:The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and UK healthcare
Designed to meet the interests of corporations rather than patients, and imperative that it’s stopped in its tracks
a bit more from this section:

"TTIP is characterised as a “new generation” trade agreement, no longer primarily concerned with reducing border tariffs (already at minimal levels between the EU and US) but aiming instead at the non-tariff barriers that exist behind the border. Yet these barriers are some of our most prized social and environmental standards, including regulations on food safety, pesticide residues, and toxic chemicals, all of which are far less stringent in the US than here. In particular, US officials are openly using TTIP to challenge the precautionary principle that exists at the heart of the EU regulatory regime—a regime that is precisely designed to put public health and environmental integrity before corporate profits".

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animist
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#25 Post by animist » November 6th, 2014, 3:52 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you
The trade negotiations are an assault on democracy. I would vote against them except… hang on a minute, I can’t
So does that also apply to the EU and the ECHR.....? :wink:
the EU is not a good example, since it was voted on in 1975 and may well be again in 2017 if we, the voters, elect MPs who want a direct vote (ie a referendum) on it. We can kind of vote against the TTIP if we want to by looking at which parties support or oppose it:
http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/05/21 ... 8-degrees/

Fia
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#26 Post by Fia » November 6th, 2014, 7:43 pm

Alan H wrote:The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and UK healthcare
Designed to meet the interests of corporations rather than patients, and imperative that it’s stopped in its tracks
Many thanks for this Alan. Like many, I'm having difficulty getting my head round TTIP. How can they do all this in secrecy? Appeals heard by TTIP lawyers, in secret. Where's the democracy in that? It seems the corporations who by their nature care most about the profit whilst the rest of us (bar most politicians and their careers) actually care about the people. I am incensed by any democratic government thinking this is a good idea but also by the 2 main English parties being quite fine about it. Let alone their refusal to exempt UK health services.

Also, Animist quoted well from the article. I've only got this issue from the health side but hadn't clocked the possible denigration of hard won and crucial European legislation.
As my Mum would say: "We're going to hell in a hand-basket" :headbang:

Nick
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#27 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2014, 4:57 pm

Alan wrote:
Nick wrote:You're not really that stupid, Alan. I know; I've met you. :)
If you've met me, then you'll know that was a stupid question.
But that means you've met me too, and you will therefore know I am too stupid to know why that is a stupid question, so do explain... :)

Nick
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#28 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2014, 5:05 pm

Alan H wrote:The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and UK healthcare
Designed to meet the interests of corporations rather than patients, and imperative that it’s stopped in its tracks
The author's grasp of economics is very small indeed. You might as well ask me to diagnose your illnesses.... :sad2:

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#29 Post by Alan H » November 7th, 2014, 5:07 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and UK healthcare
Designed to meet the interests of corporations rather than patients, and imperative that it’s stopped in its tracks
The author's grasp of economics is very small indeed. You might as well ask me to diagnose your illnesses.... :sad2:
Of course it is.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#30 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2014, 5:12 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:The author's grasp of economics is very small indeed. You might as well ask me to diagnose your illnesses.... :sad2:
Of course it is.
Glad you agree. :)

Fia
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Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#31 Post by Fia » November 7th, 2014, 5:21 pm

Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....

Nick
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#32 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2014, 5:25 pm

Fia wrote:Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....
I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#33 Post by Alan H » November 7th, 2014, 5:27 pm

Nick wrote:
Fia wrote:Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....
I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?
Good grief. We know a bit of what it's about. But we don't know what deals are being done in secret.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#34 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2014, 5:28 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Fia wrote:Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....
I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?
Good grief. We know a bit of what it's about. But we don't know what deals are being done in secret.
Possibly because there aren't any....? Or do you have evidence of such deals?

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#35 Post by Alan H » November 7th, 2014, 5:30 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?
Good grief. We know a bit of what it's about. But we don't know what deals are being done in secret.
Possibly because there aren't any....?
:) Maybe not...but maybe that's just a Rumsfeld situation.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#36 Post by Fia » November 7th, 2014, 7:42 pm

Nick wrote:
Fia wrote:Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....
I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?


Er, well they would if folk had blown whistles, that kinda goes with the whistle-blowing ethos :)
I'm now hearing the same from various sources and am awaiting evidence.

Alan is quite right about the deals doubtless being done in secret, and it's part of the TTIP set-up. If we let this go through there's no transparency, the fog continues. Appeals will be heard by lawyers in secret. The lawyers are paid by the multinationals.
On no level can I see anything good in this.

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#37 Post by Alan H » November 7th, 2014, 7:55 pm

Fia wrote:
Nick wrote:
Fia wrote:Someone just told me that we wouldn't have known anything about TTIP without whistle-blowers. Surely it's not possible to foist a secret trade agreement on democratic governments? Please tell me he's more paranoid than I'm inexorably becoming....
I do think he is wrong, Fia. After all, everyone seems to know about it, don't they?


Er, well they would if folk had blown whistles, that kinda goes with the whistle-blowing ethos :)
I'm now hearing the same from various sources and am awaiting evidence.

Alan is quite right about the deals doubtless being done in secret, and it's part of the TTIP set-up. If we let this go through there's no transparency, the fog continues. Appeals will be heard by lawyers in secret. The lawyers are paid by the multinationals.
On no level can I see anything good in this.
You'll remember, Fia (maybe Lewis or AlanC?)...there was something similar in the 90s - I remember discussing this at HSS Exec meetings. I'm sure it was Frank Neville from Dundee who was knowledgeable about this - it was something similar where corporations demanded the right to sue Governments if they didn't get what they wanted... I'm sure there was an HSS magazine article about it. Does this ring any bells? I'd love to find out what it was called.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#38 Post by Fia » November 7th, 2014, 8:26 pm

A dimly distant ding, Alan... shall I ask the current HSS fabby admin woman if she can find it? Be a good question re our archives too.

Nick
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#39 Post by Nick » November 8th, 2014, 12:37 pm

corporations demanded the right to sue Governments if they didn't get what they wanted...
Don't be so stupid, Alan. "Demands" don't have to be met, "rights" are totally subjective, and corporations are merely a legal construct anyway.

Still, if it gives you something to bleat about, then I dare say it makes you happy. Never mind any benefits it might otherwise bring.

Nick
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#40 Post by Nick » November 8th, 2014, 12:42 pm

Alan and Fia, I might just have found your whistle-blower....

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Alan H
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Re: Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

#41 Post by Alan H » November 8th, 2014, 3:15 pm

Nick wrote:
corporations demanded the right to sue Governments if they didn't get what they wanted...
Don't be so stupid, Alan. "Demands" don't have to be met, "rights" are totally subjective, and corporations are merely a legal construct anyway.

Still, if it gives you something to bleat about, then I dare say it makes you happy. Never mind any benefits it might otherwise bring.
LOL!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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