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Pope Joan

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Nick
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Pope Joan

#1 Postby Nick » September 21st, 2007, 10:25 am

I am both amused and exasperated by the Catholic Church's supposed 'proof' that Pope Joan (who is supposed to have reigned as pope for a couple of years around 850, before being found out, by giving birth while travelling in Rome) is just a legend. Their primary proof is:

Not one contemporaneous historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her; also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the thirteenth century. Now it is incredible that the appearance of a "popess", if it was an historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians from the tenth to the thirteenth century.


One could say of Jesus:

Not one contemporaneous historical source among the [Romans, Hebrews or Greeks] histories knows anything about [him]; also, no mention is made of [him] until[sixty years later]. Now it is incredible that the appearance of [the Son of God], if it was an historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians [for two generations].



Admittedly, the period of delay is longer for Joan than Jesus, but surely the arrival of the Son of God on Earth would be a big enough event to be recorded somewhere by a contemporary Roman, Hebrew or Greek scholar? Apparently not. His PR company should have been fired.

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Lifelinking
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#2 Postby Lifelinking » September 21st, 2007, 10:47 am

was there not a ritual introduced after the case of Joan, where new candidates for pope had to sit 'sans skants' on a chair with an aperture that allowed examination of their nether bits to prove that they were laddies, not ladies?
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Nick
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#3 Postby Nick » September 21st, 2007, 11:22 am

Sadly, I think that too is merely a legend.

Wikipedia says:

There were associated legends as well. In the 1290s the Dominican Robert of Uzès recounted a vision in which he saw the seat "where, it is said, the Pope is proved to be a man". By the 14th century, it was believed that two ancient marble seats, called the sedia stercoraria, which were used for enthroning new Popes in the Basilica of St. John Lateran had holes in the seats that were used for determining the gender of the new Pope. It was said that the Pope would have to sit on one of the seats naked, while a committee of cardinals peered through the hole from beneath, before declaring, "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely." Not until the late 15th century, however, was it said that this peculiar practice was instituted in response to the scandal of the 9th century female Pope.


'et bene pendentes' seems rather unnecessary. Just what use was his Holiness supposed to make of them?

Btw, the reference for my opening post is here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08407a.htm

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Alan C.
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#4 Postby Alan C. » September 21st, 2007, 11:25 am

There are a couple of references to Jesus outside of the bible, but they have long since been proved to be forgeries, I don't have time to research them just now.

Archbishop Brady laments the Ireland of stocks & shares
Pearse O'Reilly asks some of the pilgrims at the annual Knock shrine Novena about the place of faith in modern Ireland; Archbishop Sean Brady discusses the remarks in his homily

Listen to the Archbishop condemning folk for believing in astrology and tarot cards without any evidence of their validity :hilarity:
it's the 7th one down.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Lord Muck oGentry
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#5 Postby Lord Muck oGentry » September 21st, 2007, 11:59 am

Alan C. wrote:There are a couple of references to Jesus outside of the bible, but they have long since been proved to be forgeries, I don't have time to research them just now



Josephus?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

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Oxfordrocks
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#6 Postby Oxfordrocks » September 23rd, 2007, 10:02 am

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating staying in EU.

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of staying in the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens will be caused by leaving EU?
3. Should the supreme court ruling on British subjects be based in UK?

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Alan C.
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#7 Postby Alan C. » September 23rd, 2007, 1:44 pm

Oxfordrocks wrote:Perhaps this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
Well I didn't read any further than the first line, it's a known fact that Nazareth didn't exist until some 300 years after the alleged existence of Jesus.
The historical Jesus is Jesus of Nazareth
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.


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