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Badger cull

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#81 Postby Alan C. » June 1st, 2013, 8:55 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

I'll just throw this in first.
The European badger is a social, burrowing animal which lives on a wide variety of plant and animal foods. It is very fussy over the cleanliness of its burrow, and defecates in latrines. Cases are known of European badgers burying their dead family members.

As Badgers are nocturnal, are the shooters going to be armed with night sights? Are they going to be insured against shooting (by mistake) peoples pets or livestock.
I am personally in the camp of those who think that it will, in the long run, make little difference. Badgers will migrate into free territory from areas where no culling has been carried out. Thus the killing will have to go on for decades.
So am I Dave.

Also, isn't there a law about how close to a public highway you can discharge a gun? Most of the badgers I've seen in Cumbria were road kill, so although a rural animal, they are a lot of the time close to roads and areas of population.

It'll end in tears.

Later.
Men jailed for baiting badgers in Cumbria. Irony much!
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: Badger cull

#82 Postby Alan H » June 1st, 2013, 11:22 pm

Ben Goldacre bringing science and evidence into it: Badger badger badger badger CULL badger badger badger TRIAL
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#83 Postby Nick » June 2nd, 2013, 5:14 pm

Alan H wrote:Ben Goldacre bringing science and evidence into it: Badger badger badger badger CULL badger badger badger TRIAL

[from Ben Goldacre's article]the right thing to do next is a new trial, this time in the real world, with no magic


Isn't this what is now being done? 2 areas have been selected for the new trial, chosen in part because of natural boundaries to badger migration.

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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#84 Postby Nick » June 2nd, 2013, 5:15 pm

Alan H wrote:The Government finally publish their report on the human killing of badgers...No! Wait! It was only obtained after a Freedom of Information Act request: Humaneness of badger cull to be judged on noise of dying animals

Dunno the answer to this, but how humane is it to let a badger die of TB....?

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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#85 Postby Nick » June 2nd, 2013, 5:27 pm

Dave B wrote:I am personally in the camp of those who think that it will, in the long run, make little difference. Badgers will migrate into free territory from areas where no culling has been carried out. Thus the killing will have to go on for decades.
That has already been factored in. And, IIRC, the migration of badgers is into the culled areas, not away from them, as that is where there is more territory for badgers. If the migration went the other way, then the culled areas would soon be free of badgers, and moer free of TB too.

And yes, the killing is expected to go on for some years.

I will bet that the cost of that will make some of these people change their minds and decide that the vaccination route is probably more cost effective if we are talking about many decades of paying people to shoot them.
I'll take that bet, Dave! Vaccination is much more expensive than shooting, and furthermore, has to be done every year or so as the vaccine wears off, so the cost comparison becomes even worse.

Or some sick bastard will promote trapping or blocking/gassing because it is "cheaper".
As I understand it, vaccination is achieved by trapping.....

Cows milk, and all its by-products (the real motivation for this move - that which fills all the pockets) has many substitutes now and humans do not really need it.
OK, give that whirl. There aren't that many vegans about, but you could begin with yourself... :wink:

The amount of land required to produce a 1000l of cows milk could probably be better used growing vegetable products for direct human consumption. There are thousands of acres in the Gloucester area that grow nothing but grass, either as pasture or for silage, then protein of animal origin and other origins is also mixed into the feed to make sure these milk factories on legs are able to do their job. How many acres per pint then?
If milk production fell, I doubt that many acres would be switched to veggies. There's no shortage of them in the UK. It may be that there is some better use of land than grass, but, when you consider that we already spnd many millions in subsidies to farmers to keep various areas of the country as grasslands, I don't think reducing milk production would have the effect you expect.

And, as Alan C has pointed out before, in many grassland areas, crops are not a viable alternative anyway.

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Dave B
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Re: Badger cull

#86 Postby Dave B » June 2nd, 2013, 6:07 pm

Nick wrote:
Dave B wrote:
I am personally in the camp of those who think that it will, in the long run, make little difference. Badgers will migrate into free territory from areas where no culling has been carried out. Thus the killing will have to go on for decades.

That has already been factored in. And, IIRC, the migration of badgers is into the culled areas, not away from them, as that is where there is more territory for badgers. If the migration went the other way, then the culled areas would soon be free of badgers, and moer free of TB too.

And yes, the killing is expected to go on for some years.
Er, the area is not culled, the badgers are and thus, as I said, the area is free (OK, "of badgers" implied!)

And I was not thinking of live trapping . . .

OK, give that whirl. There aren't that many vegans about, but you could begin with yourself... :wink:
Haven't used cows milk, cream or butter at home for years. Cheese, yes, about 100g per month - I have used veggy cheese substitutes but admit they are, as yet, not quite right. I seem to have a bit of a lactose intolerance problem.

Roger on the vaccination front, I had not thought that one out enough!

If there is no shortage of veg in the UK why is so much imported? OK, there is the seasonal aspect but do we need every veg every month in the year? I heard, somewhere, not long ago that Britain cannot support itself in terms of food - perhaps it is time for meat to become a near luxury food again and for us to consume less in terms of dairy products? I remember when that was the case but I doubt that modern families could adjust to it I admit!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Fia
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Re: Badger cull

#87 Postby Fia » June 2nd, 2013, 8:10 pm

Vaccinating the badgers seems the obvious - albeit more expensive - option...

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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#88 Postby Alan C. » June 2nd, 2013, 10:33 pm

Fia
Vaccinating the badgers seems the obvious
Or vaccinate the coos, they're easier to catch :D
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: Badger cull

#89 Postby Alan H » June 2nd, 2013, 10:42 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Fia
Vaccinating the badgers seems the obvious
Or vaccinate the coos, they're easier to catch :D
:hilarity:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#90 Postby Nick » June 3rd, 2013, 8:06 am

First of all, sorry about badger migration, Dave, my mistake. I was rushing a bit. That'll teach me!

Secondly, vaccination of cows could be a solution, but that is currently banned by the EU. Whether it should be or not I dunno.

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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#91 Postby Nick » June 3rd, 2013, 8:14 am

Dave B wrote:If there is no shortage of veg in the UK why is so much imported?
Comparative advantage.

OK, there is the seasonal aspect but do we need every veg every month in the year? I heard, somewhere, not long ago that Britain cannot support itself in terms of food - perhaps it is time for meat to become a near luxury food again and for us to consume less in terms of dairy products?
IIRC, we haven't been self sufficient in food since the nineteenth century, and earlier than that if you think about tea, coffee, sugar etc.

I remember when that was the case but I doubt that modern families could adjust to it I admit!
Indeed.

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Altfish
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Re: Badger cull

#92 Postby Altfish » June 3rd, 2013, 8:30 am

Bear with me here....I need educating on this topic; Ben Goldacre as usual puts some sense into the trial side of things, but...

What is the issue with a cow having TB? I know that seems a very basic question, but please humour me.

If I drink pasturised milk from an infected cow, do I catch TB?
If I eat cooked meat from an infected cow/bull does it make me ill?

There seems to be very elaborate tests to check if the cows have TB, so it doesn't seem to affect the cattle...or does it?

etoile
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Re: Badger cull

#93 Postby etoile » June 3rd, 2013, 9:23 am

Altfish wrote:Bear with me here....I need educating on this topic; Ben Goldacre as usual puts some sense into the trial side of things, but...

What is the issue with a cow having TB? I know that seems a very basic question, but please humour me.

If I drink pasturised milk from an infected cow, do I catch TB?
If I eat cooked meat from an infected cow/bull does it make me ill?

There seems to be very elaborate tests to check if the cows have TB, so it doesn't seem to affect the cattle...or does it?


I'm curious about this too but maybe it's also to do with the effect of the disease on the animal itself? Perhaps reduced lifespan and breeding and milk production?

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Alan H
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Re: Badger cull

#94 Postby Alan H » June 3rd, 2013, 9:29 am

etoile wrote:I'm curious about this too but maybe it's also to do with the effect of the disease on the animal itself? Perhaps reduced lifespan and breeding and milk production?
I suspect it's much the same problem as with vaccination for foot and mouth: if you vaccinate a cow, you can't later tell whether it's carrying the vaccine (live, disabled or dead bacteria) or the real bacteria.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

etoile
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Re: Badger cull

#95 Postby etoile » June 3rd, 2013, 9:45 am

Alan H wrote:
etoile wrote:I'm curious about this too but maybe it's also to do with the effect of the disease on the animal itself? Perhaps reduced lifespan and breeding and milk production?
I suspect it's much the same problem as with vaccination for foot and mouth: if you vaccinate a cow, you can't later tell whether it's carrying the vaccine (live, disabled or dead bacteria) or the real bacteria.


The disease is destroyed by pasteurisation and even in untreated milk the risks of infection is said to be very low so why would an animal producing anti-bodies need to be destroyed?

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Alan H
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Re: Badger cull

#96 Postby Alan H » June 3rd, 2013, 10:01 am

etoile wrote:The disease is destroyed by pasteurisation and even in untreated milk the risks of infection is said to be very low so why would an animal producing anti-bodies need to be destroyed?
I don't know. Perhaps the wish is not to rely on the pasteurisation process being 100% effective - having just one layer of protection might not be robust enough? Then there is the possibility of it being passed on to humans through contact?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Altfish
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Re: Badger cull

#97 Postby Altfish » June 3rd, 2013, 10:03 am

I'm relieved that I am not the only one who isn't sure of what the problem is!

But this is important, I/we need to understand the seriousness of the disease to make a considered judgement on the remedies being implemented/trialed.

etoile
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Re: Badger cull

#98 Postby etoile » June 3rd, 2013, 12:26 pm

Altfish wrote:I'm relieved that I am not the only one who isn't sure of what the problem is!

But this is important, I/we need to understand the seriousness of the disease to make a considered judgement on the remedies being implemented/trialed.


As is often the case with issues getting a lot of publicity and causing a schism there's less informed open debate or reported hard facts than I would like. I don't know how I feel about a badger cull. We've heard on the news that it seems to have been effective in Eire to some degree but the reports have been shady about cross border controls with Northern Ireland. I've not seen any reports relating to incidents of bovine TB affecting Europe or spread across species. I take it a with CJD and BSE there are restrictions on moving cattle from affected regions ? Perhaps we're more at risk of contracting TB from wild and farm animals than we think?

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Altfish
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Re: Badger cull

#99 Postby Altfish » June 3rd, 2013, 12:46 pm

I've had a quick 'google' and come up with a couple of sites...not sure how 'idependent' they actually are though...

http://www.bovinetb.co.uk/

http://www.tbfreeengland.uk.com/

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lewist
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Re: Badger cull

#100 Postby lewist » June 3rd, 2013, 1:36 pm

Interestingly, Scotland has OTF status.
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etoile
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Re: Badger cull

#101 Postby etoile » June 3rd, 2013, 10:51 pm

lewist wrote:Interestingly, Scotland has OTF status.


I was aware some European countries don't have the same problem but not sure whether this was achieved by planned interventions or some peculiarity of circumstance, terrain maybe. Could be a factor in Scotland. Was also aware NZ had similar high levels bovine TB as England but that started to decline with the culling of possum. The poor blighters didn't have a leg to stand on as not indigenous.


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