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Badger cull

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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rana
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Re: Badger cull

#61 Post by rana » October 29th, 2012, 2:36 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Perhaps your right Nick, we certainly shouldnt wait even though the problem has been around for years. Lets start right away, and shoot peoples pet cats, foxes, deer, hedgehogs, weasels, stoats, squirrels, and sleeping Badgers along with dog walkers, protesters, and shooters, silly enough to be roaming in the woods at night. If that doesn't work nothing will.

Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#62 Post by Nick » October 29th, 2012, 5:52 pm

What a great contribution to the debate, Rana... :sad2:

Fia
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Re: Badger cull

#63 Post by Fia » October 29th, 2012, 5:58 pm

I think you're being rather harsh, Nick :sad2: Rana's post was clearly tongue in cheek, and I for one rather enjoyed it...

Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#64 Post by Nick » October 29th, 2012, 6:04 pm

If I misunderstood it, then my bad. If not, then perhaps Rana can post a less tongue in cheek response. Well, Rana? Over to you. :)

rana
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Re: Badger cull

#65 Post by rana » October 29th, 2012, 6:45 pm

Ginger hair and cool knees, I think Nick said, and with the plight of our Badgers at Stake as well :wink:

Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#66 Post by Nick » October 29th, 2012, 7:47 pm

:shrug:

I'm none the wiser.....

lewist
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Re: Badger cull

#67 Post by lewist » October 29th, 2012, 9:48 pm

Nick, Rana posted humourously. There was no humour in your response to her suggestion to look at the Scottish situation to see if there was anything to be learned. It was a sensible suggestion and I for one would be interested to know why two neighbouring countries should have such different situations. Sauce and geese and all that, Nick!
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#68 Post by Alan C. » October 29th, 2012, 10:01 pm

Lewis
I for one would be interested to know why two neighbouring countries should have such different situations.

I posted this a while back.
British badger population Scotland has only 10% of the UK Badger population, most are located in the South West of England.
As far as I know bovine TB isn't a big issue in Cumbria (where there certainly are lots of Badgers)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

rana
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Re: Badger cull

#69 Post by rana » October 29th, 2012, 10:05 pm

Well we have got off of the beaten track, but I thought Nick said!

"Errr.... why? It could easily be no more than geographical advantage, or is it red hair, salty porridge and chilly knees.....?

To my suggestion that Scottish Farmers used more conventional farming, that embraced nature and good practice", and that was the reason for the absense of BTB in Scotland.
If it is the case that this wasn't Nicks Quote, then I apologise profoundly for my mistake. Having said that we have some excellent farmers who maintain healthy stocks and good practices. We must not make rash decisions just because we do not have the right answer now.
If a farmer outside the gloucester area who previously has no BTB, but detects the disease a few weeks after the cull it will be yet another tragedy.
Think about it a proposed 70% of an area of Badgers, killed, and 30% broken families, sub adults lost, adults disorientated, some injured, and frightened, group dynamics disrupted, and previous Badger setts abandoned.
I think the NFU believes it is the same as spraying a crop to reduce insect pests, or shooting a few pigeons to reduce crop damage :)

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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#70 Post by Alan C. » October 29th, 2012, 10:37 pm

rana
Well we have got off of the beaten track,
How so?
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lewist
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Re: Badger cull

#71 Post by lewist » October 29th, 2012, 10:40 pm

Alan! I was aware you had given that statistic but that's still a lot of badgers. I would be interested to know if different farming methods and aiming for different markets has a part to play. At the time of the Mad Cow Disease emergency many Scots beef farmers were incensed by the restrictions placed on them, given they would never have fed their cattle on the feed that was responsible. Many were grain and grass feeding their beasts to grow high quality and expensive meat. It may be there were farmers in England and Wales in the same situation but it's the Scots I am aware of.

So, I do wonder, why the difference?
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#72 Post by Alan C. » October 29th, 2012, 11:12 pm

Lewis.
I would be interested to know if different farming methods and aiming for different markets has a part to play.
I would say most definitely.
At the time of the Mad Cow Disease emergency
"Emergency"? Like the bird flue "emergency"? The salmonella in eggs "emergency" The foot and mouth fiasco?
many Scots beef farmers were incensed by the restrictions placed on them, given they would never have fed their cattle on the feed that was responsible. Many were grain and grass feeding their beasts to grow high quality and expensive meat. It may be there were farmers in England and Wales in the same situation
Quite,
Well said Lewis.
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Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#73 Post by Nick » October 30th, 2012, 9:48 am

First of all, my apologies, if I have seemed to bite anyone. That was not my intention at all. Let me try again:

rana wrote:[my bold]The NFU and Government should carry on trying to tackle the problem, and maybe take some advice from Scottish Farmers, who clearly farm in a more healthy and environmentally friendly way

I don't think that is clear at all. I suggest to you that it is just geographical luck that Scotland is not (yet) affected by bovine TB. A comparable example would be the spread of the disease which is killing ash trees. The fact that it has yet to reach Scotland says nothing about the care of ash trees by the Scots. It is purely an arbitrary by-product of the epidemiology and the way diseases spread.

Please explain how "more healthy and environmentally friendly" Scottish ways would improve the bovine TB problem in the worst affected areas in England.

rana
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Re: Badger cull

#74 Post by rana » October 30th, 2012, 1:31 pm

Well I aint bin bitten yet, but glad Nick brought up the Ash tree disease, first discovered in February, when imports of Ash should have been instantly stopped, but now its a big problem (Shut the gate now the horse has bolted).
Farmers were slow on the uptake with BTB, these diseases always seem to appear in Southern England, and spread, as I believe has been quoted. BTB has been around since Victorian times, and was almost eradicated during the 1960s, but farmers were complacent, inadequate follow up testing, checks on cattle movements should have been more rigorous, and some farmers tried to hide incidence of suspected BTB, since they were only concerned with extra yields, and feeding their cattle with garbage. Modern milking systems don't help either, because the "Hands on" approach where the dairyman knew each of his cows by name, also helped identify problems early.
Badgers are Native here, so cattle movements have infected our Badgers.
I don't think it really matters that Scotland only has 25000 Badgers, if there was an outbreak in Scotland it would spread quickly unless identified and contained.
Our Badgers are actually in decline, despite well meaning people saying differently; 50'000 Badgers are killed on the roads each year, this in not a bench mark to the thousands living in the wild, these are displaced animals, due to clearing woodland for development, thus spreading the disease even further.

Nick
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Re: Badger cull

#75 Post by Nick » October 30th, 2012, 3:22 pm

rana wrote:Well I aint bin bitten yet, but glad Nick brought up the Ash tree disease, first discovered in February, when imports of Ash should have been instantly stopped, but now its a big problem (Shut the gate now the horse has bolted).
Apparently, the problem has arisen independently of imported trees, carried by wind and birds and other means from the continent, so an import ban, while appropriate, would not, it seems, have been sufficient.

Farmers were slow on the uptake with BTB, these diseases always seem to appear in Southern England, and spread, as I believe has been quoted.
As Southern England is nearer to the continental sources of these diseases, it would be strange if it were any other way. As I say, it is geography, not farming methods, which accounts for this.

BTB has been around since Victorian times, and was almost eradicated during the 1960s, but farmers were complacent, inadequate follow up testing, checks on cattle movements should have been more rigorous, and some farmers tried to hide incidence of suspected BTB, since they were only concerned with extra yields, and feeding their cattle with garbage.

Hmmm... From what I can gather, bovine TB increased markedly as badger numbers increased following their statutory protection. As for cattle movements and inspections, these have been strictly controlled after bouts of foot and mouth and BSE. They are all tested every year, and, from what I can gather, very often the first and only sign of the disease is the test result, rather than any immediate evidence from the animal infected.

Modern milking systems don't help either, because the "Hands on" approach where the dairyman knew each of his cows by name, also helped identify problems early.
Hmmm... not only do I think most dairymen still know their stock, but as farms have grown in size and sophistication, I'd suggest their disease control measures have improved too, not least beccause the costs of any outbreak would be higher than previously.

Badgers are Native here, so cattle movements have infected our Badgers.
Certainly, infection goes both ways, but infected cattle are destroyed. Infected badgers are not.

I don't think it really matters that Scotland only has 25000 Badgers, if there was an outbreak in Scotland it would spread quickly unless identified and contained.
Hmmm... not only would a higher density of badger population suggest a greater risk of the spread of TB in badgers, but how, exactly, do you propose to "identify and contain" the risk?

Our Badgers are actually in decline, despite well meaning people saying differently; 50'000 Badgers are killed on the roads each year, this in not a bench mark to the thousands living in the wild, these are displaced animals, due to clearing woodland for development, thus spreading the disease even further.

Hmmm... As far as I can tell, the area under woodland in the UK is actually going up, not down.

lewist
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Ash Tree disease (split from Badger Cull thread)

#76 Post by lewist » October 30th, 2012, 5:44 pm

I don't think Bovine Tuberculosis is a new import. It was once endemic in this country and now it's not. There has to be an explanation for that.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Re: Badger cull

#77 Post by Maria Mac » November 19th, 2012, 10:40 am

A new thread has been created here: Ash Tree disease

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Alan H
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Re: Badger cull

#78 Post by Alan H » June 1st, 2013, 10:16 am

The Government finally publish their report on the human killing of badgers...No! Wait! It was only obtained after a Freedom of Information Act request: Humaneness of badger cull to be judged on noise of dying animals
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Dave B
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Re: Badger cull

#79 Post by Dave B » June 1st, 2013, 11:51 am

I will bet that the same people who think up these ideas are also the ones that think the death of a fox to hounds is also a humane form of culling.

I am personally in the camp of those who think that it will, in the long run, make little difference. Badgers will migrate into free territory from areas where no culling has been carried out. Thus the killing will have to go on for decades. I will bet that the cost of that will make some of these people change their minds and decide that the vaccination route is probably more cost effective if we are talking about many decades of paying people to shoot them. Or some sick bastard will promote trapping or blocking/gassing because it is "cheaper".

Cows milk, and all its by-products (the real motivation for this move - that which fills all the pockets) has many substitutes now and humans do not really need it. The amount of land required to produce a 1000l of cows milk could probably be better used growing vegetable products for direct human consumption. There are thousands of acres in the Gloucester area that grow nothing but grass, either as pasture or for silage, then protein of animal origin and other origins is also mixed into the feed to make sure these milk factories on legs are able to do their job. How many acres per pint then?

Pity soya does not grow here, though even that might be possible with a little manipulation of its genes . . .
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Altfish
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Re: Badger cull

#80 Post by Altfish » June 1st, 2013, 2:27 pm

I don't really have an opinion on this, mainly because I struggle to find facts that are not tainted by one side or the other. But...I'm not sure what the end game is, what the resolution is?
If the trial cull shows a drop in Bovine TB, that will then lead to more culls...but when does it stop? When all badgers are dead?
You can guarantee if there is no improvement in the Bovine TB figures the pro-cull side will say that the trial areas were not large enough.

It appears to be a short term solution at best.

Also, if a cow has Bovine TB, what does that mean? If I eat a steak from that cow or drink its milk does it pass on to me?

Sorry, if this has all been said before but I have not read through the whole thread.

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Alan C.
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Re: Badger cull

#81 Post by Alan C. » June 1st, 2013, 8:55 pm

I'll just throw this in first.
The European badger is a social, burrowing animal which lives on a wide variety of plant and animal foods. It is very fussy over the cleanliness of its burrow, and defecates in latrines. Cases are known of European badgers burying their dead family members.

As Badgers are nocturnal, are the shooters going to be armed with night sights? Are they going to be insured against shooting (by mistake) peoples pets or livestock.
I am personally in the camp of those who think that it will, in the long run, make little difference. Badgers will migrate into free territory from areas where no culling has been carried out. Thus the killing will have to go on for decades.
So am I Dave.

Also, isn't there a law about how close to a public highway you can discharge a gun? Most of the badgers I've seen in Cumbria were road kill, so although a rural animal, they are a lot of the time close to roads and areas of population.

It'll end in tears.

Later.
Men jailed for baiting badgers in Cumbria. Irony much!
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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