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Australian Guides show the way

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Fia
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Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Australian Guides show the way

#1 Post by Fia » July 6th, 2012, 9:41 pm

Girl Guides in Australia will no longer have to pledge allegiance to the Queen and God and will instead promise to serve the community and Australia.
They will also pledge "to be true to myself and develop my beliefs".
story here

There now. That wasn't so hard was it? Worldwide Guide (and Scout, only the females in Australia taking this long needed step... as yet...) movement please take note :)

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Dave B
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#2 Post by Dave B » July 6th, 2012, 9:46 pm

Yeah, good news, there is intelligent life, as we know it, in the Antipodes after all!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#3 Post by Nick » July 7th, 2012, 4:15 pm

Fia wrote:
Girl Guides in Australia will no longer have to pledge allegiance to the Queen and God and will instead promise to serve the community and Australia.
They will also pledge "to be true to myself and develop my beliefs".
story here

There now. That wasn't so hard was it? Worldwide Guide (and Scout, only the females in Australia taking this long needed step... as yet...) movement please take note :)
Yes, it's an improvement, but I'm not that keen on "develop my beliefs" and (of course) "community"......

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Dave B
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#4 Post by Dave B » July 7th, 2012, 4:40 pm

but I'm not that keen on "develop my beliefs" and (of course) "community...".
And, of course, community what, Nick, are you an anti-communityist then!? :smile:

Surely we should all have the right to "develop our beliefs" even if others do not agree with them? And the more kids that "think community" the better in my book, so long as it is not an extremely parochial form of community.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#5 Post by Nick » July 7th, 2012, 5:50 pm

Dave B wrote:
but I'm not that keen on "develop my beliefs" and (of course) "community...".
And, of course, community what, Nick, are you an anti-communityist then!? :smile:
It's just a personal gripe of mine, Dave, and not necessarily entirely objective. It is a hugely overused word, in my experience. I have no idea which "community" I belong to, and find it a hugely unhelpful word.
Surely we should all have the right to "develop our beliefs" even if others do not agree with them? And the more kids that "think community" the better in my book, so long as it is not an extremely parochial form of community.
And another thing! I think talking of "rights", as you just have, begs huge questions! That's right up there with "community"! As for "develop our beliefs", to me, that implies support for beliefs without reason too. Develop our beliefs in homeopathy and talking to sky-daddy? Why is that a good thing?

thundril
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#6 Post by thundril » July 7th, 2012, 6:11 pm

Surely it is good that young people are encouraged to develop their own beliefs. That implies thinking, and changing, as opposed to just accepting someone else's beliefs.
Except at the extremes, it is surely better for a young mind to have some beliefs? Even xianity or Islam must be better for the young mind than cold cynicism?
Or is it better if young people only believe what I think is good for them to believe? Or what you think?

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Dave B
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#7 Post by Dave B » July 7th, 2012, 11:09 pm

Hmmm, Nick, I think we can belong to several "communities" at the same time - in the looser usage they are not just the local demographic grouping. It has been said, IIRC, that this forum is a community and it certainly has no real geographical limits.

However I would think that the new antipodean GG oath owes more to geographical locality than a "commonness" of mind - that is covered more by the belief element. But this is, in my mind, a better approach than the much more narrow "God and Queen" oath.

Watched the new version of Old Bill's "Richard II"* this evening, the one that has the, "This sceptred isle . . .", piece in it. Both Carole and I agreed that the essence of this was that patriotism was more a love of one's country, the geographical entity, than who the monarch was (or even if there was one), or which bunch of politicians was in government.

This new oath is, to me, closer to that ideal.

[* Part of the interest was that some of this series was filmed in Gloster Cathedral and we watched some of the scenery being installed.]
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Fia
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#8 Post by Fia » July 7th, 2012, 11:36 pm

Dave B wrote:Hmmm, Nick, I think we can belong to several "communities" at the same time
Quite, Dave. I'm part of this community here on TH; my local community -being the 'Humanist minister'; working in it to support the housebound; volunteering for community organisations- the Humanist Celebrant community, the worldwide Humanist community, even the Facebook community :-) I find it very helpful to spread my skills and outlook of life by engaging with folk, so don't get Nick's objection to the word...

The key in developing beliefs is that it clearly states my beliefs. This puts the onus on the individual Guide to explore what they might be. Not what others tell them to be. And this kicks open a door to all sorts of conversations about why folk beleive different things and encourage rationality.

If you, Nick, could rewrite the Guide promise, what would it say?

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Kismet
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#9 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 8:35 am

Is a secularization of public life by its nature neutral? I cannot tell.

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Alan H
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#10 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 10:26 am

Kismet wrote:Is a secularization of public life by its nature neutral? I cannot tell.
Why can't you tell?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#11 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 12:36 pm

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:Is a secularization of public life by its nature neutral? I cannot tell.
Why can't you tell?
Secularization is equivalent to neutral? How?

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Alan H
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#12 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 12:46 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:Is a secularization of public life by its nature neutral? I cannot tell.
Why can't you tell?
Secularization is equivalent to neutral? How?
What do you think 'secularisation' means?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#13 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 12:49 pm

Alan H wrote:What do you think 'secularisation' means?
I'm not interested in quibbling over definitions. Both you and I know what it means.

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Alan H
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#14 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 12:51 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:What do you think 'secularisation' means?
I'm not interested in quibbling over definitions. Both you and I know what it means.
I have an understanding of what it means, but before we can discuss anything about it, I have to have an understanding of what you think it means. If we don't have that understanding, we could be going round in circles equivocating for all eternity.

What is your understanding of secularisation.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Joined: May 27th, 2012, 2:29 am

Re: Australian Guides show the way

#15 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 12:52 pm

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:What do you think 'secularisation' means?
I'm not interested in quibbling over definitions. Both you and I know what it means.
I have an understanding of what it means, but before we can discuss anything about it, I have to have an understanding of what you think it means. If we don't have that understanding, we could be going round in circles equivocating for all eternity.

What is your understanding of secularisation.
"Secularization (or secularisation) is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward nonreligious (or irreligious) values and secular institutions. "
- wikipedia

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Alan H
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#16 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 12:55 pm

Kismet wrote:"Secularization (or secularisation) is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward nonreligious (or irreligious) values and secular institutions. "
- wikipedia
And does that concord with your complete understanding of the word?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#17 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 12:55 pm

Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:"Secularization (or secularisation) is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward nonreligious (or irreligious) values and secular institutions. "
- wikipedia
And does that concord with your complete understanding of the word?
Yes.

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Australian Guides show the way

#18 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2012, 12:59 pm

Kismet wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Kismet wrote:"Secularization (or secularisation) is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward nonreligious (or irreligious) values and secular institutions. "
- wikipedia
And does that concord with your complete understanding of the word?
Yes.
It's a slightly strange definition (and certainly incomplete), but what do you believe it means in practice?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Kismet
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Joined: May 27th, 2012, 2:29 am

Re: Australian Guides show the way

#19 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 1:00 pm

So the point is, you can't be neutral and secular, because then you default to secularism.

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Kismet
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Re: Australian Guides show the way

#20 Post by Kismet » July 10th, 2012, 1:02 pm

A general stripping of religion and all its subsequent forms from the public square including politics and social practices?

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