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The future of the NHS (if any)

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1281 Post by Dave B » July 2nd, 2015, 7:57 am

Latest post of the previous page:

I notice there is a lower cost limit here. What about the quids charged for generic drugs that cost pennies?

Will this cause some to not continue to take necessary medicine. It will affect the old and timid more than the couldn't-care-less types that probably cause much of the waste.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1282 Post by Alan H » July 2nd, 2015, 9:52 am

Dave B wrote:I notice there is a lower cost limit here. What about the quids charged for generic drugs that cost pennies?

Will this cause some to not continue to take necessary medicine. It will affect the old and timid more than the couldn't-care-less types that probably cause much of the waste.
Precisely. Hunt will have been the cause of death.

As usual, there would appear to be not a jot of evidence that this jolly jape of his will save any of w

The Independent article says:
It follows a study, commissioned by the Government, which found that wasted medicines cost the NHS £300m a year.

This represents around £1 in every £25 spent on drugs in primary care and 0.3 per cent of total NHS outlays. The figure includes around £9m worth of unused prescription medicines that are left in people’s homes, £110m returned to community pharmacies over the course of a year, and £50m worth of NHS supplied medicines disposed of unused by care homes.
So he did a study that came up with the figure of £300 million. The Independent calls this 'wasted medicines cost' and this amounted to 4% of the (primary care) drugs budget and 0.3% of the total NHS cost. Of this, £169 million, are medicines that were unused. It's not clear where the other £131 million comes from. What this idiot seems to ignore is that there are frequently very good reasons for not using all medicines prescribed to you: some are prescribed as take as required; conditions improve; a doctor prescribes a lower/higher dose or a different drug as your condition changes; people die. So there is a possibility that much of this £169 million is unavoidable 'waste' There might be a case for reviewing pack sizes or doctors prescribing less at a time, but it looks like that would, at most, save a tiny fraction of this number.

Then, as you say, there are the (unintended) consequences. As the article points out, some drugs cost thousands of pounds a year and there at least seems the possibility that some people will baulk at the cost and not take them; not return to their GP; and possibly not return them to their pharmacist. These are conceivable and foreseeable harms and unless Hunt has evidence this will never happen - or that not many will suffer or die as a result - then he's callous as well as stupid and ignorant.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1283 Post by Dave B » July 2nd, 2015, 11:54 am

Just proving himself to be the shit-head we know he is.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1284 Post by Alan H » July 2nd, 2015, 11:59 am

Dave B wrote:Just proving himself to be the shit-head we know he is.
It's his wanton disregard for evidence and utter lack of compassion that get me.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1285 Post by Alan H » July 2nd, 2015, 1:32 pm

Someone on Twitter suggested it should be how much it is costing each taxpayer. From the article, the total NHS drugs bill is 7.5 billion, so, assuming there 30 million taxpayers, the cost of all drugs is (crudely) £250 per taxpayer per year. So, someone with requiring (to use the article's example) Perampanel, what they (and everyone else - well, taxpayers anyway) are actually paying is £20 per month, not £152 per month. Looks like a bargain to me.

But perhaps there should be two prices on every packet: the cost on the NHS (£20, say) vs the cost if there was no NHS (£152, say). That would be good - it'd show what great value the NHS is for everyone, but maybe not what Jeremy Hunt would like.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
Posts: 17809
Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1286 Post by Dave B » July 2nd, 2015, 1:51 pm

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:Just proving himself to be the shit-head we know he is.
It's his wanton disregard for evidence and utter lack of compassion that get me.
l'll reitterate my previous response to this complaint: what value is evidence or compassion when it goes against political ideology?

These people are human in their physical form only it oftens seems. In their ideology they are somewhere on the Hitler scale, possibly still below 50% at the moment, but it was 45% or so before the election!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

thundril
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Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1287 Post by thundril » July 2nd, 2015, 3:43 pm

Socialised medicine doesn't work, does it?
Let's hear the advocates of a private health industry explain how this sort of thing happens.

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Alan H
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Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1288 Post by Alan H » July 3rd, 2015, 10:39 am

The Royal Pharmaceutical Society politely pointing out Hunt's stupidity: RPS comments on putting the price onto packs of NHS medicine
Yesterday Secretary of State for Health Jeremy Hunt proposed putting the price onto packs of patients' medicines when they cost over £20 and mark them 'funded by the UK taxpayer' in a move aimed at increasing medicines adherence and reducing medicines waste.

Chair of the English Pharmacy Board Sandra Gidley said:

“We agree with the intent to make sure people use their prescribed medicines and reduce medicines waste, however this area is complex; people don’t use their medicines for a lot of different reasons.

“We would be concerned if anyone, through knowing the cost of their medicine, felt they were a burden on the NHS and for that reason didn’t collect their medicines. This would increase NHS costs as illnesses would deteriorate and potentially much more expensive hospital treatment may be needed.

“It’s important that people understand the value of their medicines. We know that around 30-50% of patients don’t use their medicines as intended and there is around £150 million of avoidable medicines waste every year.

“Pharmacists are now spending more time with patients providing on- to-one support to understand the range of reasons why medicines may not be taken.

“Although knowledge of the cost of medicines may play a part, it's equally important we focus on factors such as peoples' understanding of the side effects and benefits from medicines, which will also influence whether a condition is treated effectively or the medicine ends up in the bin.”
Neal Patel talks to Radio 4's You & Yours about putting the cost onto packets of NHS medicines
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1289 Post by Alan H » July 3rd, 2015, 5:35 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1290 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2015, 7:24 pm

Quarter of PM's flagship out of hours GPs forced to cutback
Five of twenty of the PM's flagship out of hours GP services have been forced to cut back some of their weeknight and weekend opening due to poor demand
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1291 Post by Nick » July 10th, 2015, 9:09 pm

So patients are only ill 9 - 5? Monday to Friday? How convenient. :rolleyes:

Best close A & E at 5pm on Friday,then.....

Or is something else at work here...?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1292 Post by Alan H » July 10th, 2015, 9:10 pm

Nick wrote:So patients are only ill 9 - 5? Monday to Friday? How convenient. :rolleyes:

Best close A & E at 5pm on Friday,then.....

Or is something else at work here...?
Good grief.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1293 Post by Nick » July 11th, 2015, 7:39 pm

Cogently argued, Alan. :wink:

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Alan H
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Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1294 Post by Alan H » July 11th, 2015, 7:47 pm

Nick wrote:Cogently argued, Alan. :wink:
Thank you.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1295 Post by Alan H » July 12th, 2015, 5:55 pm

Nice to publish report on NHS staffing levels despite being told to stop work
Critics say move by Department of Health to take evidence reviews in-house will lead to lower standards in staffing as watchdog plans to release its report

Ministers and NHS bosses face an embarrassing row over safe staffing levels for nurses in hospital A&E departments in England after it emerged that the government body told to stop work in this area is going to publish its recommendations anyway.

The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), which is legally independent of the NHS, plans to release its work at the end of the month.

It is also continuing evidence reviews for staffing mental health care for both inpatients and those in the community, for learning disability services and for other community health services.

The move, revealed by the Health Service Journal (HSJ), comes a month after news that NHS England, which is far more tightly controlled by the Department of Health (DH), had decided to take such work in-house.

This was seen by critics as likely to lead to lower, and cheaper, standards in terms of staffing within the financially challenged service, which has already been told by health secretary Jeremy Hunt to stop using expensive staffing agencies, which, he says, have been “ripping off the NHS”.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

thundril
Posts: 3607
Joined: July 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1296 Post by thundril » July 13th, 2015, 11:37 pm


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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1297 Post by Alan H » July 15th, 2015, 11:22 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1298 Post by Alan H » July 15th, 2015, 11:51 pm

Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1299 Post by Nick » July 16th, 2015, 8:32 am

No it doesn't. It has just announced billions in increased funding.

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Alan H
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Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1300 Post by Alan H » July 16th, 2015, 9:19 am

Nick wrote:
No it doesn't. It has just announced billions in increased funding.
:laughter:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The future of the NHS (if any)

#1301 Post by Alan H » July 16th, 2015, 2:06 pm

Jeremy Hunt's divisive approach to seven-day NHS services benefits no one
Hunt’s commitment must surely match his rhetoric. The previous government’s Nicholson challenge of taking £20bn out of a £100bn budget has brought the health service to its knees. His new cost-efficiency drive is already posing a further challenge on all NHS hospitals. He takes no account of the fact that demands on the health service are growing year on year; general practice is already in crisis, and if we continue at this pace the whole of the NHS will be in special measures because of a misplaced ideology that public services are overfunded, inefficient, and alternative care is the way forward. You do not have to be a pundit to realise that the government can hardly afford its current model, let alone generate a different emergency system and reduce the NHS budget by £30bn by the end of the next parliament.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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