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Scottish Devolution

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#481 Post by Altfish » June 12th, 2014, 6:21 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
There's plenty of water and energy (fracking???) in the north west of England

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#482 Post by getreal » June 12th, 2014, 6:22 pm

"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#483 Post by Dave B » June 12th, 2014, 7:26 pm

Altfish wrote:
Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
There's plenty of water and energy (fracking???) in the north west of England
Ah, but . . .

Fracking is fossil fuel, not renewable. Though with some of the forecasts for climate change in the UK England might be able to do a bit of hydro of its own! Use the energy to pump the water elsewhere maybe.

Hmm, Dinorwig hydro generator station repeated over the country . . .
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Fia
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#484 Post by Fia » June 12th, 2014, 8:42 pm

Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
Well, we dinnae need to do any more of that as we have plenty of natural power resources. Anyone who's visited knows we have plenty of wind and waves and tides. I fully expect us to be exporting power in the next ten years. Indeed, we should have been doing it 30 years ago but then folk said folk like me we were cranks....

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Dave B
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#485 Post by Dave B » June 12th, 2014, 9:06 pm

Fia wrote:
Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
Well, we dinnae need to do any more of that as we have plenty of natural power resources. Anyone who's visited knows we have plenty of wind and waves and tides. I fully expect us to be exporting power in the next ten years. Indeed, we should have been doing it 30 years ago but then folk said folk like me we were cranks....
(my bold)

I think it was Schumacher (Small is Beautiful) who said something like, "I don't mind being called a crank. Cranks are simple, efficient devices for creating revolutions."
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

lewist
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#486 Post by lewist » June 13th, 2014, 9:32 am

In the seventies we were world leaders in renewable energy. The Thatcher dictatorship pulled the plug on the funding for research and decreed that we were to have the Torness nuclear power station instead. We had no say in this; it was a decision handed down from Westminster without mandate.

Perhaps in the future a Scottish Government will opt for nuclear. I hope not. I would not support it, but if it happened it would at least be a decision made here by a government accountable to the Scots people, rather than by a foreign dictatorship as happened then and in other fields is happening now.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#487 Post by Altfish » June 13th, 2014, 10:56 am

Must admit, I do believe there is a great future for MODERN nuclear power stations; they are infinitely safer than those built in the 50s, 60's and 70s.
I believe that other schemes; eg wind turbines, hydro electric power will be found to have a greater environmental effect.

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Dave B
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#488 Post by Dave B » June 13th, 2014, 11:57 am

Altfish wrote:Must admit, I do believe there is a great future for MODERN nuclear power stations; they are infinitely safer than those built in the 50s, 60's and 70s.
I believe that other schemes; eg wind turbines, hydro electric power will be found to have a greater environmental effect.
I believe that other schemes; eg wind turbines, hydro electric power will be found to have a greater environmental effect.
"Than we expected" or "Than nuclear power stations," Altfish?

I read, yonks ago, a report that said that many wind turbines would reach the end of their useable life never fully replacing the carbon cost of their manufacture, transport, installation, servicing and recovery/salvage.

Tidal systems fared better IIRC.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#489 Post by Altfish » June 13th, 2014, 12:16 pm

Than they are being 'sold' as having, which could also be greater than nuclear.

I've no problem with wind turbines as part of an overall policy.
Hydro Electric and Tidal schemes have enormous environmental impact on habitat, an odd scheme is fine but flooded valleys and blocked estuaries are not to be encouraged

Nick
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#490 Post by Nick » June 13th, 2014, 12:39 pm

Fia wrote:
Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
Well, we dinnae need to do any more of that as we have plenty of natural power resources. Anyone who's visited knows we have plenty of wind and waves and tides. I fully expect us to be exporting power in the next ten years. Indeed, we should have been doing it 30 years ago but then folk said folk like me we were cranks....
Sadly, Fia, renewable power is still too expensive and /or unreliable. The whole lot depends on subsidies. Is Scotland going to subsidise Enmglish power? Hmmm.... I doubt it somehow....

We are still years away from power solutions. Personally, I wish we'd divert the subsidies to inefficient "green energy" into more game-changing research.

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#491 Post by Alan H » June 13th, 2014, 1:19 pm

Fia wrote:
Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
Well, we dinnae need to do any more of that as we have plenty of natural power resources. Anyone who's visited knows we have plenty of wind and waves and tides. I fully expect us to be exporting power in the next ten years. Indeed, we should have been doing it 30 years ago but then folk said folk like me we were cranks....
Indeed. Scotland already produces about 40% of Scottish demand from renewables and that is set to increase. From a New Scientist article last month:
With all these measures on the table, Toke [of the University of Aberdeen] estimates that Scotland can meet its 100 per cent target by 2023 for less money than it would if it remained part of the UK.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#492 Post by Dave B » June 13th, 2014, 3:28 pm

Alan H wrote:
Fia wrote:
Dave B wrote:I am wondering when Scotland will dam up all the glens and install hydro-electric generators so they can export energy to the rest of us (at a price of course.)
Well, we dinnae need to do any more of that as we have plenty of natural power resources. Anyone who's visited knows we have plenty of wind and waves and tides. I fully expect us to be exporting power in the next ten years. Indeed, we should have been doing it 30 years ago but then folk said folk like me we were cranks....
Indeed. Scotland already produces about 40% of Scottish demand from renewables and that is set to increase. From a New Scientist article last month:
With all these measures on the table, Toke [of the University of Aberdeen] estimates that Scotland can meet its 100 per cent target by 2023 for less money than it would if it remained part of the UK.
There yer go, perhaps the economists and accounts are not always right?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Nick
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#493 Post by Nick » June 13th, 2014, 4:15 pm

[=Dave"]
Alan H wrote: Scotland already produces about 40% of Scottish demand from renewables and that is set to increase. From a New Scientist article last month:
With all these measures on the table, Toke [of the University of Aberdeen] estimates that Scotland can meet its 100 per cent target by 2023 for less money than it would if it remained part of the UK.
There yer go, perhaps the economists and accounts are not always right?[/quote]

OTOH, maybe you should be thankful there are accountants and economists about! :wink:

Scotland may very well be able to meet its target for less money, but it will still have to subsidise it massively.

I can't remember the precise figures, or indeed to measures used, but it's the relative amounts which are important. According to Radio 4 this morning, (sorry, not sure which programme...) gas costs (IIRC) less than £60 per unit, the new nuclear power plant has been guaranteed £90 per unit (which is much higher than current bills to energy users), onshore wind, about £120 per unit, offshore wind about £130 per unit, and the proposed tidal generator over £160 per unit.

So let's take London, say. We could buy electricity from an independent Scotland, over 500 miles away, at £160 a unit, or from independent France, maybe 100 miles away, at less than £90 a unit, and still meet our targets for carbon generation.

OTOH, England could get fracking, reduce the cost of energy, divert the subsidy into scientific research, and beat its targets in a much more sustainable way than impoverishing millions and throwing tens of thousands out of work.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#494 Post by Nick » June 15th, 2014, 8:44 pm

According to a letter in yesterday's Torygraph, EU rules require a new accession country (Scotland, say....) to a) adopt the Euro, b) join Shengen (So we will have passport controls at the Scottish- English border), c) an end to their proportion of Thatcher's rebate and d) VAT on food and children's clothes.

a) and c) seem very likely, and maybe b) but d)... Hmmm.... Is there VAT on such things in Europe....? Dunno. :shrug:

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#495 Post by Alan H » June 15th, 2014, 9:01 pm

Nick wrote:a) and c) seem very likely, and maybe b) but d)... Hmmm.... Is there VAT on such things in Europe....? Dunno. :shrug:
Some details here.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Nick
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#496 Post by Nick » June 16th, 2014, 11:56 am

Thanks, Alan. Looks variable, but certainly some countries put VAT on food. Hmmm... I wonder whwther there is any compulsion to do so?

stevenw888
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#497 Post by stevenw888 » June 16th, 2014, 12:07 pm

I'm not sure whether these points have already been raised, but Scottish independence raises some really practical difficulties.
For example
I listen to Radio 2 a lot, and every hour they give a traffic report. These reports include things like - "The M74 is very busy this morning, due to a crash at junction 2. Drivers should seek an alternative route where possible."
If independence takes place, I don't think Radio 2 will be broadcasting information about Scottish motorways. After all, they don't broadcast problems with Southern Ireland's motorways. Therefore if Scottish folk are listening to Radio 2, they will have to re-tune to another radio station to get traffic reports.
On "Steve Wright's Sunday Love Songs" (on at 9am on Sundays, and a regular listen-to in our household) they often play requests from Scottish people, from Scottish towns. Again, I don't think they'll be doing this if Scotland becomes independent. Therefore those Scottish people who listen to this programme (and others like it - let's call them "British" programmes) will no longer be able to get their requests read out.
More importantly, I'm guessing that postage rates to Scotland from England would go up, as Scotland would, in future be classed by the Royal Mail, as "abroad". I sell a lot of stuff on ebay, and have to specify more expensive postage rates for potential buyers living in Southern Ireland. In future, I'll have to do the same for purchasers from Scotland. This affects Scotland much more than it does England, simply because of relative populations. Scottish buyers will be deterred from purchasing things from English sellers, and English people will be deterred from purchasing things from Scottish sellers. A lot of my sales currently go to Scottish buyers. Also, I'm guessing that the cost of phone calls between the two countries would go up.

What will we call the BBC? It stands for British Broadcasting Corporation, but if "Britain" ceases to exist, it may have to find a new name.
Has anyone in Scotland considered these practical difficulties?
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#498 Post by Altfish » June 16th, 2014, 12:10 pm

Not sure if that will actually happen, if a licence fee is paid by Scotland (can't remember if it is) then they will continue to broadcast traffic, if not as you say it'll be dropped. I listen to radio 6 they have contributors from all over the globe on there, so phone ins and the like probably won't be affected

Nick
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#499 Post by Nick » June 16th, 2014, 12:16 pm

Hmmm... The idea of Scotland being part of the World Service..... :wink: I also wonder if a Scottish Broadcast Company would have the resources to provide all the creative resources currently available. The most likely outcome is that services and programmes will be bought in from foreign countries, like England, for example. I don't really see much scope for a much more Scottish service.

stevenw888
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#500 Post by stevenw888 » June 16th, 2014, 12:30 pm

Altfish raises an interesting point. Do Scottish people pay the BBC licence fee? I presume they do. Will they continue to pay the licence fee after independence?
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." - From the film "Top Gun"

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animist
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Re: Scottish Devolution

#501 Post by animist » June 16th, 2014, 12:30 pm

stevenw888 wrote: What will we call the BBC? It stands for British Broadcasting Corporation, but if "Britain" ceases to exist, it may have to find a new name.
Has anyone in Scotland considered these practical difficulties?
first question - Britain will not cease to exist, but second question - what a good question for those who are inspired by an understandable urge for "freedom" but who may, in its event, find the many and sundry mundane comforts of modern life on a united island rather less comfortable in the new disunited island

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