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Ali Dizaei

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Trinoc
Posts: 239
Joined: October 20th, 2009, 12:04 am

Re: Ali Dizaei

#21 Post by Trinoc » February 9th, 2010, 8:20 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Marian wrote:I read Trinoc's statement as meaning that the police wouldn't have pursued the prosecution if they hadn't been trying to nail the Dude for years. IOW, they had him but needed a better case. When they found it they jumped.
Perhaps, but I was also allowing for the possibility that they were trying to nail him for being an outspoken critic of police racism or maybe just for being non-white and in a position of authority, rather than for any criminal wrongdoing.

It's not too difficult to imagine white cops in the lower ranks saying something like "Why should I take orders from some bleedin' Paki? He's the sort of bloke we should be roughing up on the streets!"

(Yes, I know he's not Pakistani, but it's a general term of abuse for someone from anywhere between Iran and Bangladesh.)
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

Hundovir
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Joined: June 21st, 2009, 3:23 pm

Re: Ali Dizaei

#22 Post by Hundovir » February 9th, 2010, 9:22 pm

Trinoc wrote:It's not too difficult to imagine white cops in the lower ranks saying something like "Why should I take orders from some bleedin' Paki? He's the sort of bloke we should be roughing up on the streets!"
It's not too difficult to imagine a criminal of Iranian origin thinking to himself something like, "How can get away with this? I know, I'll accuse my accusers of racism."

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Ali Dizaei

#23 Post by Nick » February 9th, 2010, 10:01 pm

Admittedly it is the Daily Mail, but I don't believe Operation Helios would have been undertaken lightly, and also, phone taps require special permission from a judge, I believe. Again I don't think permission would have been granted without very good reason.

I'm also a bit tired of this phrase 'institutional racism'. Certainly there have been racist officers in the past. Certainly there are still some closet racists now, just as there are in any walk of life. Some of them will be black. It is also natural for officers to bond most closely with those with whom they have empathy. Surprise, surprise they are likely to have a similar racial background. From her photo, I'd say Dizaei's wife was Iranian. Does that make him racist? He was eating in an Iranian restaurant. Does that make him racist? Does the Police have rules which discriminate on the basis of race within the force? I don't know of any. Indeed the only racist institution I can see is the National Black Police Association.

Let's see how his appeal goes....

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#24 Post by Marian » February 10th, 2010, 12:50 am

Trinoc wrote:Perhaps, but I was also allowing for the possibility that they were trying to nail him for being an outspoken critic of police racism or maybe just for being non-white and in a position of authority, rather than for any criminal wrongdoing.
You're sitting on the fence? Are you sure you're not Canadian? :wink: Seriously though, I think the guy was power-tripping. He's commander and he arrests some guy who asked for payment of services rendered? Talk about over the top!
In terms of his being outspoken, there's much easier ways of making life difficult for him within the service then spending inordinate amts of money on investigating him ie Helios. Since he rose in rank fairly quickly, the racism in the force couldn't have been all that bad. Sure it exists but if it was endemic, there's no way he would have gotten that far, imo.
Nick wrote: ...Does the Police have rules which discriminate on the basis of race within the force? I don't know of any. Indeed the only racist institution I can see is the National Black Police Association.
Yeah, I don't think the racism is systemic but rather individual or within cliques. How is the NBPA racist?
Transformative fire...

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#25 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 12:39 pm

He was (wrongly as it transpired) accused by MI5 of being a threat to the nation. This information was passed to Scotland Yard. The subsequent investigation (of some 30 charges, many of which were trivial) found nothing of any substance, but in what appeared to be an effort not to lose face, they persued a couple of bizzarre charges in relation to him reporting his car being vandalised and a questionable claim for expenses (which was shown to be completely above board).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 112472.stm

Sorry, I'm a bit busy today. I'll be back later.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

philbo
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#26 Post by philbo » February 10th, 2010, 3:19 pm

Nick wrote:Hmmm... There's an old phrase " There's no smoke without fire".
That is a phrase I utterly abhor - because not only is it not true as a metaphor, it's not true in real life, either: it's easy to make smoke with no fire, and it's even easier to start a rumour that sounds vaguely credible yet has no truth behind it at all.

In the case of Ali Dizaei, I did find myself wondering about the police surgeon's evidence: basically the one objective fact of the whole case was that the injuries Dizaei were describing could not have occurred in the way he said they did, and were consistent with being self-inflicted. However, if it were even possible that she was wrong, I'm sure it would have been challenged a bit more vehemently in court - Dizaei didn't have his own tame "expert" to say "these injuries are just what you'd expect by someone hit with this sort of little tube".

As a long-time Private Eye reader (where the sometimes woefully silly allegations against him were regularly reported), I started pretty sceptical about this one, too - yet I don't think there's much doubt left in this case. It does make you wonder about some previous charges, though: the attitude Dizaei has shown in this instance is pretty sickening in its arrogance, and that sort of self-centredness doesn't spring up overnight - I'm coming round to the idea that he wasn't hounded by the police because he was Asian, but because he was an obnoxious bully who just plain pissed people off.

I hope his appeal is thrown out before it costs the taxpayer silly money.

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#27 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm

It is possible for someone to be
an obnoxious bully who just plain pissed people off.
and not be guitly all all those past allegations (which proved to be unfounded)!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

philbo
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#28 Post by philbo » February 10th, 2010, 3:38 pm

getreal wrote:It is possible for someone to be
an obnoxious bully who just plain pissed people off.
and not be guitly all all those past allegations (which proved to be unfounded)!
True - there were (as I said above) some truly laughable allegations made; having said that, there were also charges not brought, presumably because having got it wrong before (and paid out £60k or whatever it was in damages), the police were running scared.

It took someone from outside the force pressing charges to get a conviction.. I get the feeling that if the police could have kept this internal & quiet, they probably would have done.

I've found the almost orgiastic litany of "well, we knew he was a bad 'un" quotes to be a bit annoying, though, and the profile this case has received also seems a lot higher than it really merits.. but OTOH, he was someone who used the press to try and force the police force to change, so I guess one who lives by the sword...

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#29 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 4:01 pm

I'm convinced there were some (senior) staff who wanted rid of him. It was only a matter of time till they found some mud which could stick.

Having read his book, I do think he's a bit of an arrogant twat. :D
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

philbo
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#30 Post by philbo » February 10th, 2010, 4:22 pm

getreal wrote:I'm convinced there were some (senior) staff who wanted rid of him. It was only a matter of time till they found some mud which could stick.
Except that wasn't the case in this instance: it was the guy Dizaei tried to fit up who brought the complaint, the top brass didn't have anything to do with bringing the case to court: that's the job of the DPP's office, and the IPCC investigation team.

It wasn't a case of them finding some mud that would stick, it was more like Dizaei wallowing in the stuff, and trying to fling it at some unfortunate web developer (ISTR they said "commanderalizizaei.com", but ain't no such site... at least, not yet)

I don't know why the techie chap didn't just change the home page ;)

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#31 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 4:50 pm

philbo wrote: Except that wasn't the case in this instance: it was the guy Dizaei tried to fit up who brought the complaint, the top brass didn't have anything to do with bringing the case to court: that's the job of the DPP's office, and the IPCC investigation team.
I fully accept that the evidence in this case seemed pretty conclusive (though I admit Iwasn't in court listening to all the details!). However, as was said before, perhaps if this had involved a different serving policeman, one who didn't get up everyone's noses, it would not have gone as far as court. Who knows?
philbo wrote: It wasn't a case of them finding some mud that would stick, it was more like Dizaei wallowing in the stuff, and trying to fling it at some unfortunate web developer (ISTR they said "commanderalizizaei.com", but ain't no such site... at least, not yet)
This mud came to the surface and was scooped up by the authorities! I'm pretty sure that the victim would have been well supported (and possibly encouraged)in pursuing his case against Deseai.

The problem is that if "they are out to get you" they surely will- providing they throw enough money at it and they keep at it. Everyone has skelatons in their cupboard; everyone has done things in the past they probably shouldn't.
Sheesh! I'm begining to sound like a conspiracy theorist!!
Which I hasten to add, I most definatly am not.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#32 Post by Marian » February 10th, 2010, 5:06 pm

Quick question. From your reading the book, does the "dude" ever take responsibility for anything he's done or is it always someone else's fault? Just curious. He just strikes me as the kind of person who might say, "Look at poor me. Let me write this book so everyone can see how hard done by I am..."
Transformative fire...

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#33 Post by Marian » February 10th, 2010, 5:59 pm

philbo wrote:
Nick wrote:Hmmm... There's an old phrase " There's no smoke without fire".
That is a phrase I utterly abhor - because not only is it not true as a metaphor, it's not true in real life, either: it's easy to make smoke with no fire, and it's even easier to start a rumour that sounds vaguely credible yet has no truth behind it at all.
Yeah, if we are going to be literal about the above phrase, we can see that it doesn't work all that well but as a metaphor, it works just fine. Utterly abhor, that's some deep-seated hatred. Whoa! :wink:

In terms of the case in question, "dude" was getting himself into all sorts of trouble prior to the last crime. For whatever reason. Personally, I think he was an arrogant, obnoxious power-hungry bully who felt he thought his position would protect him. If there is trouble (smoke) going on, it's reasonable to assume that (fire) may be near. I think the phrase represents the previous sentence without all the words.
In life, I think it's very wise to pay careful attention to past behaviour as it's usually a good indicator of future behaviour. Not a guarantee but enough to take heed. I am not saying dude was automatically guilty but let's say I'm not at all surprised.
Transformative fire...

Nick
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#34 Post by Nick » February 10th, 2010, 8:59 pm

getreal wrote:He was (wrongly as it transpired) accused by MI5 of being a threat to the nation. This information was passed to Scotland Yard. The subsequent investigation (of some 30 charges, many of which were trivial) found nothing of any substance, but in what appeared to be an effort not to lose face, they persued a couple of bizzarre charges in relation to him reporting his car being vandalised and a questionable claim for expenses (which was shown to be completely above board).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/n ... 112472.stm
It doesn't make it untrue, of course, but the bbc report is decidedly onesided, isn't it? Not something one could rely on for an unbiased review of the case.

Also, we are unable to determine whether the investigation found anything of substance, more that they were able to find anything which would stick.

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#35 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 10:35 pm

That was just one source of information relating to the accusations- have a google around and I'm pretty sure you'll not find anything ("reliable") which would disagree that Operation Helios was a huge embarrassment to the police authorities and an enormous waste of time and money.

He was very clearly a thorn in the side of the police authorities. That does not make him guilty of wrongdoing.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#36 Post by Lifelinking » February 10th, 2010, 10:37 pm

Nor does it necessarily make him in the right.

It is all conjecture at best, ill informed guesswork at worst.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#37 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 10:40 pm

Spoil sport!!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#38 Post by Lifelinking » February 10th, 2010, 10:43 pm

I'm sorry

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"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#39 Post by getreal » February 10th, 2010, 11:14 pm

You are forgiven.

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"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#40 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » February 11th, 2010, 11:00 am

Nick wrote:I'm also a bit tired of this phrase 'institutional racism'. Certainly there have been racist officers in the past. Certainly there are still some closet racists now, just as there are in any walk of life.
"Institutional racism" may be an overused and misused expression that many find annoying but it is a term that does describe a genuine phenomenon, in my view. It is about organisations and systems, not individuals. Long ago I worked for an organisation that was institutionally sexist and institutionally classist, but that didn't mean that my co-workers and bosses were a bunch of chauvinists and snobs. What it meant was that the widely held but unexamined and often unjustified assumptions about, for example, what makes a good manager or a good leader, were reinforced by the systems within the organisations [---][/---] the training courses people were sent on, the appraisal processes and criteria for appointments and promotions [---][/---] in a way that led to discrimination on the basis of sex and class and probably various other things too. Although matters have improved hugely, these kinds of biases still exist (in fact, I think there are a few new ones now, thanks to some of the crap taught on some management courses).

After Macpherson accused the Metropolitan Police of institutional racism, they were forced to make changes, but it seems unlikely to me that after only eleven years they've got it absolutely right, especially since his findings were not universally accepted. The stop and search statistics alone suggest that they've still got a long way to go. Incidentally, I never thought I'd say this, but I recommend reading Boris Johnson on the subject [---][/---] specifically his piece about the Macpherson Report in The Spectator.
Marion wrote:Since [Dizaei] rose in rank fairly quickly, the racism in the force couldn't have been all that bad. Sure it exists but if it was endemic, there's no way he would have gotten that far, imo.
Hmm. That's a bit like saying that if sexism had been endemic in the British political system in the 1970s, Maggie Thatcher would never have become prime minister. :laughter:

Emma

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#41 Post by Marian » February 11th, 2010, 11:44 am

emmawoolgatherer wrote:Hmm. That's a bit like saying that if sexism had been endemic in the British political system in the 1970s, Maggie Thatcher would never have become prime minister. :laughter: Emma
I think it depends on what you're comparing. If we were to compare the current political system in Afghanistan and how it treats women (they had one woman minister and how they dealt with her was to put pressure on her and her family and finally threatened to kill her to make her leave) (Night letters) to the 70's political system in Britain, I think you might say that the 70's English system was a tad better. Know what I mean? :D
Transformative fire...

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