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Ali Dizaei

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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getreal
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Ali Dizaei

#1 Post by getreal » February 8th, 2010, 5:07 pm

I'm rather perturbed about the guilty verdict against Ali Dizaei's today. Here's a link to the BBC story.
He has been the subject of numerous investigations, most (all?) of which have been found to be groundless. He has often claimed he has been the subject of racial prejudice within the police force.

There has been no statement from his solicitor-is that not a bit strange? Something about this whole case smells a bit whiffy to me. Either that or he's the most fucking unlucky man I've come accross in a long time!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#2 Post by Lifelinking » February 8th, 2010, 5:59 pm

If the conviction is sound and the story in the BBC article is true, he has certainly made a complete rip roaring arse of himself.

I do notice what appears to be an unusually long queue of people who seem delighted to be able to put the boot in to him now he is down. Whether this is unfair, or whether he is justly due such a profoundly embarrassing comeuppence I cannot say.

Heard him speak when he was heading up the BPA and thought he came across quite well.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#3 Post by getreal » February 8th, 2010, 10:38 pm

Interesting how the previous allegations of wrongdoing are being touted as if he "got away with it" in the past and has now had his *comeuppance. Surely this is a misrepresentation? These allegations were all rejected.

*is that a real word?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#4 Post by Lifelinking » February 8th, 2010, 10:47 pm

yesumdiddleypop*

*this however, is not.

The press has scented blood and there seem to be plenty of people prepared to help by sticking more knives in him.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#5 Post by getreal » February 8th, 2010, 11:07 pm

I've watched it on both BBC, ITV and C4.

It's reassuring to see that Brittish journalism continues to produce such detailed and balanced reportage.

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"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#6 Post by Lifelinking » February 8th, 2010, 11:26 pm

oh er, what was it called? Drop the Dead Donkey? It was good.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#7 Post by getreal » February 8th, 2010, 11:34 pm

I particularly liked "Damien Day" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2bvR3BT_g

kind of reminds me of Dail Mail :)
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Re: Ali Dizaei

#8 Post by Nick » February 9th, 2010, 12:34 am

The news on Radio 4 says that an appeal is inevitable, based on race law, and will cost £8 milliion. I think he's taking the piss. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, that £8 million has to be paid for and is not justified, being taken, as it will be, from those with far less opportunity and chutzpah that Ali Dizaei has demonstrated.

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Re: Ali Dizaei

#9 Post by Nick » February 9th, 2010, 12:43 am

getreal wrote:Interesting how the previous allegations of wrongdoing are being touted as if he "got away with it" in the past and has now had his *comeuppance. Surely this is a misrepresentation? These allegations were all rejected.

*is that a real word?
It'll do just fine!

Hmmm... There's an old phrase " There's no smoke without fire". I'm not saying he was inevitably guilty of previous wrongs, but rather that, for all sorts of good reasons, (of which I generally approve) justice often favours the accused. With all the inevitable accusations of racism which would accompany any challenge to Dizaei, it takes bottle on behalf of the official prosecutors to pursue such a path. Given his conviction (presumably by a fair trial) it is somewhat inevitable that there is some sort of backlash against previous presumed bias. It strikes me as strange that his career has been so littered with accusation and litigation, culminating in a pretty severe conviction. I'm not saying he would not have experienced prejudice in his life, but OTOH, he doesn't seem to have handled his situation well.

Mike
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#10 Post by Mike » February 9th, 2010, 4:20 am

I have to say that I find myself in full agreement with both of Nicks' posts.

Hundovir
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#11 Post by Hundovir » February 9th, 2010, 8:23 am

getreal wrote:Something about this whole case smells a bit whiffy to me. Either that or he's the most fucking unlucky man I've come accross in a long time!
Or... he did done wot he was supposed to have did done and he got done for it.

Or something.
Mike wrote:I have to say that I find myself in full agreement with both of Nicks' posts.
I initially read that as "I have to say that I find myself in full argument with both of Nicks' posts." A potentially very useful phrase and one I shall now try to use in future conversations.

Slightly more serious. Since working as a conductor on the railways I'm afraid I now find myself suspicious of accusations of "racism". I lost count of the number of times I was called racist for asking to see tickets, for requiring people to buy tickets, for asking people to leave a train because they did not have tickets and would not buy any. "You wouldn't be doing this if I was white..." :rolleyes:

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#12 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » February 9th, 2010, 10:42 am

I do believe that the Metropolitan Police is still guilty of institutional racism to some extent, and I also believe that there are individual police officers who have racist views and are guilty of racial discrimination (I've met some). I think it is highly likely that Ali Dizaei has been, at various times in his career, subject to racial discrimination. But I have no idea whether earlier allegations about Dizaei's misconduct had any truth behind them. If he was guilty, it does seem surprising, given the enormous effort and huge amount of money spent on investigating him, that they didn't produce compelling evidence to prove his guilt. But perhaps that enormous effort was the reason he was acquitted. It did appear to many as though the Met had some kind of vendetta against him, whether it was a racist witch hunt or simply fuelled by the obnoxiousness of the man. I am reluctant to say that "political correctness" protected him, but the zeal of those trying to catch him would no doubt have been seen as less suspicious if he had been white.

Anyway, although we don't know all the details of this particular incident, it does seem much more likely to me that Dizaei abused his authority to bully an innocent man than that Waad al-Baghdadi falsely claimed that Dizaei was threatening him, given that al-Baghdadi knew how high up Dizaei was in the Met. After listening to the 999 calls that both men made, I find al-Baghdadi's account more plausible.

Yes, it is wrong to conclude that, because he has been found guilty of this particular incident, he must have been guilty of all the earlier charges against him. But it does at least seem that there was pretty compelling evidence that he was a nasty piece of work. Mind you, I did read that in the Daily Mail [---][/---] an institutionally racist newspaper if ever there was one.

Emma

Trinoc
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#13 Post by Trinoc » February 9th, 2010, 11:10 am

Assuming for a moment that the false arrest incident was true, what is the chance that the police would have pursued a prosecution for this (rather than hushing it up and strong-arming the alleged victim into dropping charges) if the arresting officer had been white and/or not someone they had been trying to nail for years?
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#14 Post by Marian » February 9th, 2010, 1:50 pm

It seems unlikely that this dude, Dizaei, was completely innocent of all previous charges/allegations laid against him and he was probably protected by his position to a certain extent by internal and external politics. I don't think you get to be commander without some level of social networking and charisma. It's not just the results of the necessary tests.

I am sure institutionalized racism can be found anywhere but I've got to say that I'm awfully tired of that word being thrown around so liberally by anyone who feels unjustly done by. Just because someone disagrees with another or points out inappropriate behaviour, doesn't make someone a racist but it sure is convenient to lay it out there. Then everyone freaks out.
Discrimination happens on both sides of the colour divide. I've seen non-whites treat whites as if they don't exist. And visa versa. The thing that really gets me is that we do all this because of how much melanin is in someone's skin? Or is there attitude and behaviour on both sides of any equation that might be better served by actually listening...oops, there I go again. Must stop the idealization and practical solutions... :wink:

Oh,btw, what does mean by: He's taking the piss?
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Alan C.
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#15 Post by Alan C. » February 9th, 2010, 2:45 pm

Oh,btw, what does mean by: He's taking the piss?
Having a laugh, taking the mickey, being facetious.
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getreal
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#16 Post by getreal » February 9th, 2010, 3:00 pm

Marian wrote:It seems unlikely that this dude, Dizaei, was completely innocent of all previous charges/allegations laid against him and he was probably protected by his position to a certain extent by internal and external politics. I don't think you get to be commander without some level of social networking and charisma. It's not just the results of the necessary tests.
Why do you say that? Couldn't it be possible that he was, in fact, innocent (as was proven in most, if not all, instances)? he was certainly a very outspoken policeman and I'm sure that did not make him very popular with some of the top brass. Some of the allegations against him were outrageous and were IMHO possibly due more to his attitude than his skin colour.
He clearly got up some people's noses and appeared to be arrogant-this, however, does not make him guilty of these other charges.

The current case against him was clearly proven, and while I am not for one minute condoning his behaviour, I have to agree with Trinoc, when he says
what is the chance that the police would have pursued a prosecution for this (rather than hushing it up and strong-arming the alleged victim into dropping charges) if the arresting officer had been white and/or not someone they had been trying to nail for years
I think this had all gone beyond skin colour and was a witch hunt.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Emma Woolgatherer
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#17 Post by Emma Woolgatherer » February 9th, 2010, 6:07 pm

getreal wrote:Couldn't it be possible that he was, in fact, innocent (as was proven in most, if not all, instances)? ... He clearly got up some people's noses and appeared to be arrogant-this, however, does not make him guilty of these other charges.
I agree. But since there does seem to be evidence that he is guilty not just of arrogance but of some pretty dodgy behaviour, one can more easily believe him capable of some of the other things he has been accused of. And court cases often do come down to a matter of which party is more believable.
getreal wrote:The current case against him was clearly proven ...
Well, I don't think it was clearly proven; I just think his guilt is much more probable than his innocence, because he was less believable than his accuser.
getreal wrote:... while I am not for one minute condoning his behaviour, I have to agree with Trinoc, when he says
what is the chance that the police would have pursued a prosecution for this (rather than hushing it up and strong-arming the alleged victim into dropping charges) if the arresting officer had been white and/or not someone they had been trying to nail for years
I think this had all gone beyond skin colour and was a witch hunt.
I don't think that Dizaei's skin colour had anything to do with the huge investigation into him, but his nationality certainly did. MI5 suspected him of being a spy for Iran.

Trinoc may be right. But if the arresting officer had been a reasonably well-liked and well-respected senior officer in the Metropolitan Police, of whatever ethnicity, and if the alleged victim had been the same 24-year-old Iraqi web designer, and there had been no eyewitnesses to the events, then surely there would have been no need for hushing up and strong-arming. The charge would have been dropped; the CPS wouldn't have seen it as a winnable case. With this case, they clearly did think it was winnable. But let's face it, there must be loads of cases where it's a matter of one person's word against another, and the guilty party happens to be seen as more credible than the other, because he or she is a respectable pillar of the community, or is articulate and charismatic, or something like that. In an unequal, class-ridden society, it's par for the course.

Emma

Marian
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#18 Post by Marian » February 9th, 2010, 6:44 pm

getreal wrote: Why do you say that? Couldn't it be possible that he was, in fact, innocent (as was proven in most, if not all, instances)? he was certainly a very outspoken policeman and I'm sure that did not make him very popular with some of the top brass. Some of the allegations against him were outrageous[/url] and were IMHO possibly due more to his attitude than his skin colour.
He clearly got up some people's noses and appeared to be arrogant-this, however, does not make him guilty of these other charges.
Yes, it is possible that he didn't commit any of the alleged offences but I'm thinking of likelihood. It's fascinating to me that the charges he faced back in 2001 are almost exactly the same as what he was convicted for later. Unless, he had some kind of mental breakdown and started acting irradically (highly unlikely, imo), he got away with the behaviour the first time and that emboldened him to continue.

I also want to add that, in court, the prosecution must prove the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Failing to do so doesn't automatically mean that the accused is innocent; it just means the state didn't present a good enough case. Many reasons for that.

In terms of the top brass, he clearly didn't piss them off all that much since he continued to rise up in the ranks. I suspect he pissed off the rank and file by acting as if he was above the law and somebody had had enough. Time to bring him down a few notches.

I agree that skin colour played only a minor role in all of this and it was convenient that his accuser in the final instances was also a man of colour. "Dude" couldn't play the race card then.

You asked me why I say what I do. Couple of reasons:
1) I am almost completely cynical--things very rarely ever are as they seem.
2)human nature being what it is, people tend to repeat previous behaviour.
getreal wrote:The current case against him was clearly proven, and while I am not for one minute condoning his behaviour, I have to agree with Trinoc, when he says
what is the chance that the police would have pursued a prosecution for this (rather than hushing it up and strong-arming the alleged victim into dropping charges) if the arresting officer had been white and/or not someone they had been trying to nail for years
Refer to previous paragraph about reasonable doubt. I read Trinoc's statement as meaning that the police wouldn't have pursued the prosecution if they hadn't been trying to nail the Dude for years. IOW, they had him but needed a better case. When they found it they jumped.
I think I also say this because I have the impression that the police tend to look after their own and if they don't, there must be a pretty good reason. Sure, maybe it was a witch-hunt but it was impossible to prove that witches were in fact, witches, so therefore, they should have been acquitted. In Dude's case, I think he thought he could get away with it.

Sorry cross-posted with Emma

PS. I'll never get called for jury duty :laughter:
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Hundovir
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Re: Ali Dizaei

#19 Post by Hundovir » February 9th, 2010, 6:59 pm

Hundovir wrote:Since working as a conductor on the railways I'm afraid I now find myself suspicious of accusations of "racism". I lost count of the number of times I was called racist for asking to see tickets, for requiring people to buy tickets, for asking people to leave a train because they did not have tickets and would not buy any. "You wouldn't be doing this if I was white..."
Trinoc wrote:Assuming for a moment that the false arrest incident was true, what is the chance that the police would have pursued a prosecution for this (rather than hushing it up and strong-arming the alleged victim into dropping charges) if the arresting officer had been white and/or not someone they had been trying to nail for years?
Well, there ya go! :laughter:

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Re: Ali Dizaei

#20 Post by Trinoc » February 9th, 2010, 8:20 pm

Marian wrote:I read Trinoc's statement as meaning that the police wouldn't have pursued the prosecution if they hadn't been trying to nail the Dude for years. IOW, they had him but needed a better case. When they found it they jumped.
Perhaps, but I was also allowing for the possibility that they were trying to nail him for being an outspoken critic of police racism or maybe just for being non-white and in a position of authority, rather than for any criminal wrongdoing.

It's not too difficult to imagine white cops in the lower ranks saying something like "Why should I take orders from some bleedin' Paki? He's the sort of bloke we should be roughing up on the streets!"

(Yes, I know he's not Pakistani, but it's a general term of abuse for someone from anywhere between Iran and Bangladesh.)
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

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