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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#21 Post by getreal » October 21st, 2009, 2:03 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

We would have to keep the English and French very far away from each other, then.

I know that some nuns/monks/priests can be cruel and sadistic. All my friends were taught at a convent school and the nuns there didn't seem to be particularly fond of children.

My experiences with nuns has been quite the opposite, though. I have found them intellegent, thoughtful and caring, but I'm well aware this was just my experience.

There was another convent nearby where people often took their children (only girls) with learning disabilities to be cared for (from about the 50s till the 80s). While the children were fed and clean and kept busy with sewing religious garments, they had no life. Luckily in the late 80s early 90s, there was a change in legislation which meant anyone caring for groups of people had to be properly registered. The convent could not meet any of the registration requirements and had no real will to do so.


The people left at the convent were provided with homes in a small housing estate being built nearby. They were provided with 24 hour care.
It was a much more full life than they had at the convent.
Not sure what this proves, though.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#22 Post by Compassionist » October 22nd, 2009, 9:28 pm

:)

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grammar king
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#23 Post by grammar king » October 22nd, 2009, 9:59 pm

Remember they were movies though, hardly representative of the mainstream.

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#24 Post by Compassionist » October 23rd, 2009, 6:43 pm

:)

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#25 Post by Lifelinking » October 23rd, 2009, 10:07 pm

Remember they were movies though, hardly representative of the mainstream.
I dunno GK. From what I can make out, corporal punishment / physical abuse seems to have been pretty 'mainstream' in Catholic education and 'care' institutions in Scotland. Every person I ever met who had experience of the Marist brothers describes them as sadists. A friend of ours who started off her career in social work in a Catholic institution was shocked at the levels of abuse and reported it (very courageous for a young trainee - especially back then). I know this is all anecdotal, and may be quite unrepresentative, but I would be careful of assuming that this was the case.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#26 Post by Compassionist » October 24th, 2009, 12:35 pm

:)

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#27 Post by Alan H » October 25th, 2009, 2:18 pm

King Fayed I of Scotland?
********************************************************************************
Fayed: Forget Salmond, make me your ruler - Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 889088.ece
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fayed: Forget Salmond, make me your ruler
Mohamed Al Fayed
Marc Horne

Never mind the last king of Scotland. Mohamed al-Fayed, who has declared his ambition to become the first president of an independent Scottish nation, is urging his “fellow Scots” to detach themselves from “the English and their terrible politicians”.

The Egyptian-born tycoon, who owns the 65,000-acre Balnagown estate in the Highlands, said he felt great affinity with the Scots, who he claims share his ancestry.

The owner of Harrods, the London store, who has been refused a British passport, said he hoped to be offered Scottish citizenship if a planned independence referendum next year leads to the break-up of the United Kingdom.

However, unlike Idi Amin, the Ugandan dictator who declared himself king of Scotland, Fayed would content himself with the presidency.
Related Links

* The next king of Scotland?

“You Scots have been living in a coma for too long,” he told The Sunday Times.

“It is time for you to waken up and detach yourselves from the English and their terrible politicans.

“Whatever help is needed for Scotland to regain its independence, I will provide it. When you Scots regain your freedom I’m ready to be your president.

“I have lived here [in England] for 40 years, but now the home that I want is Scotland.”

Fayed, who has long claimed that the British establishment orchestrated a plot to kill his son Dodi and Diana, Princess of Wales, said he hoped that an independent Scotland would also become a republic and evict the royals from their Scottish home.

“If you Scots retain the royal family you will have no hope. You will be like Bangladesh,” he said.

“But once you get rid of the royals I will buy Balmoral Castle and open it up. I will run it for the public as a museum.”

Fayed, 80, said he felt close affinity to the Scots, who he believes are descended from an Egyptian princess.

According to mythology, Scota, the daughter of Chencres, the pharaoh, took to sea 3,600 years ago after a quarrel with her father, taking with her two sons and the stone of destiny, on which Scottish kings would later be crowned.

The princess is said to have died shortly after discovering a windswept land off the northwest coast of Europe, which became home to her sons and was named in her honour.

To mark this supposed link, Fayed said he intends to give a life-size bronze statue of Scota to the Scottish nation. The £60,000 memorial, which will depict Scota in a kilt, will be offered to Edinburgh and Glasgow. If neither city accepts it, Fayed said he would display the statue on his Highland estate.

“The Scots are originally Egyptians and that’s the truth,” he said. “I will erect a statue of Princess Scota to honour the close links between Scotland and Egypt. I will place the statue any place the Scottish people want it, Edinburgh, Glasgow or at Balnagown.”

Fayed said he was taught about the legend of Scota at school in Alexandria. The statue would be modelled on illustrations contained in Scotichronicon, the 15th- century account of Scottish history. The tome, written by the nationalist Walter Bower, has been put on display by Fayed in Harrods. He is convinced of the veracity of its account of Scottish history, despite its assertion that the English were born with tails after “God smote them in their hinder parts”.

The statue is likely to be designed by Bill Mitchell, a friend of Fayed who was commissioned to create a memorial to Dodi and Diana for Harrods.

Despite his enthusiasm for Scottish independence, Fayed said he was angry that his offers of financial assistance had been rebuffed by Alex Salmond, the Scottish first minister and leader of the Scottish National party.

While sources close to Salmond have said that accepting Fayed’s help would raise “presentational issues”, the failure of the Scottish establishment to embrace him rankles.

“I will do anything for Scotland but I don’t want this Alex Salmond,” Fayed said.

“I asked to meet him, but he refused. I wanted to give him some help and advice, but he didn’t want to know.

“I buy property in Scotland, I employ people there, I bring in tourists there, I believe in Scotland, but still he won’t see me.”

Richard Oram, professor of medieval history at Stirling University, said the story of Scota was a legend invented to demonstrate the supposed superiority of Scottish civilisation. “The English insisted their forebears were Trojans and the Scots wanted to go one better and claim they were descendants of the ancient Egyptians,” he said.

“It is a very, very ancient claim, but in terms of historical accuracy it’s complete and absolute rubbish. However, up until the late 18th century the legend of Princess Scota was believed absolutely as being the truth of the origin of the Scottish people.”

Alastair Macdonald, a lecturer in history at Aberdeen University, agreed that the story was a fable. He said: “If Mr al-Fayed has read about Scota he should know that she is a fictional construct of the Middle Ages. I suspect he would rather ignore the scholarship and enjoy the myth.”

A spokesman for Salmond confirmed that he had declined an invitation from Fayed to discuss a possible donation, but added: “No disrespect was intended.”

In 2007 Fayed unveiled a life-size waxwork of himself, in full Highland dress complete with a Harrods tartan kilt, at his Falls of Shin visitor centre in Sutherland.

[Retrieved: Sun Oct 25 2009 14:15:59 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#28 Post by getreal » January 20th, 2013, 10:47 pm

I cannot believe this thread has lain dormant for over 3 years.

In light of the forthcoming vote (and my inability to find an existing thread on the referendum) I thought I could ressurect it to stimulate intellegent discussion on this important issue.

Though, to be completely truthful, I just want to hear others views as I'm hopelessly undecided!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... nly-option

posted originally in "Poverty" thread by lewist :)
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#29 Post by Lifelinking » March 22nd, 2013, 9:59 pm

Hi Getreal, I think there are quite a few of us that are as yet undecided. I have started a series of blogs about the Independence referendum here if you are interested.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#30 Post by getreal » March 22nd, 2013, 10:26 pm

Thanks, Lifey. I'll check that out. I'm still hopelessly undecided.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#31 Post by getreal » March 22nd, 2013, 10:38 pm

we differ quite markedly, from England (not sure sbout NI and Wales) in our cultural values. We are much more egalitarian in our views. I feel we have more in common, culturally and politically, with scandianvian countries and some of the aspects of our being politically tied to westminster hinder our ability to develop these values.

that, and I'm fed up mwith the BBC not diffenentiating on new items between the UK/England and assuming we're all have the same systems and services.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#32 Post by Lifelinking » March 22nd, 2013, 10:55 pm

I think you are right that we seem to have a greater cultural predisposition towards social democracy. Personally, I would like to see stronger mechanisms for participatory democracy, and more of them. A big question for me therefore, is whether this would be more likely in an Independent Scotland or with Devolution.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#33 Post by Alan H » March 22nd, 2013, 11:02 pm

Lifelinking wrote:I think you are right that we seem to have a greater cultural predisposition towards social democracy. Personally, I would like to see stronger mechanisms for participatory democracy, and more of them. A big question for me therefore, is whether this would be more likely in an Independent Scotland or with Devolution.
I think that is something we'd all like to see. Perhaps we need it more that ever in England, so it would be good to get that fixed at Westminster first (but I won't be holding my breath!). However, I see the attraction of divorcing yourselves from the vile Tories we're lumbered with. Unfortunately, I see Alex Salmond as just about as vile! Hobson's choice. Maybe the answer is independence, but get rid of the SNP as soon afterwards as possible?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#34 Post by getreal » March 22nd, 2013, 11:11 pm

I think the left wing parties would do better than the SNP at a port-independance election.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#35 Post by Altfish » March 22nd, 2013, 11:14 pm

getreal wrote:we differ quite markedly, from England (not sure sbout NI and Wales) in our cultural values. We are much more egalitarian in our views. I feel we have more in common, culturally and politically, with scandianvian countries and some of the aspects of our being politically tied to westminster hinder our ability to develop these values.

that, and I'm fed up mwith the BBC not diffenentiating on new items between the UK/England and assuming we're all have the same systems and services.
I'm not sure about that; you assume all of England is the same. I, as a Mancunian, find I have more in common with the Scots than I have with Westminster. For selfish easons I hope that you vote to remain part of the union; otherwise we will forever more have a Tory government.

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#36 Post by getreal » March 22nd, 2013, 11:21 pm

I'm not talking as individuals, altfish, but as a nation. I'm sure there are many people in England who share our values. But not the majority-otherwise the government would be different, surely?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#37 Post by Lifelinking » March 23rd, 2013, 9:49 am

There are some interesting things happening in the UK, such as Democracy 2015.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#38 Post by Alan H » March 23rd, 2013, 10:43 am

getreal wrote:I'm not talking as individuals, altfish, but as a nation. I'm sure there are many people in England who share our values. But not the majority-otherwise the government would be different, surely?
Only if democracy was perfect! As we have a Government that no one really voted for, implementing policies that no one voted for and were told were not going to happen...

I really don't see a great difference between the the two 'nations'. As Altfish says, I'm sure many in England have an affinity with a more caring, socialist outlook (and thus with the Scots). Could it not just be more a case of the 'haves' down here are more numerous and have grabbed more power than the 'have nots' and in true Tory fashion, want to keep it all (and more) to themselves?

But Altfish also make a very good point when he suggests we needs the Scots to keep us from perpetual Tory Government (and its utter demolition of any semblance of a caring society). Please don't abandon us to that fate!!!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#39 Post by Nick » March 23rd, 2013, 12:55 pm

Alan H wrote:
Lifelinking wrote:I think you are right that we seem to have a greater cultural predisposition towards social democracy. Personally, I would like to see stronger mechanisms for participatory democracy, and more of them. A big question for me therefore, is whether this would be more likely in an Independent Scotland or with Devolution.
I think that is something we'd all like to see. Perhaps we need it more that ever in England, so it would be good to get that fixed at Westminster first (but I won't be holding my breath!). However, I see the attraction of divorcing yourselves from the vile Tories we're lumbered with. Unfortunately, I see Alex Salmond as just about as vile! Hobson's choice. Maybe the answer is independence, but get rid of the SNP as soon afterwards as possible?
Unfortunately for you, Alan, if Scotland does opt for independence, then the Tories will have a greatly enhanced chance of being re-elected, as all those Scottish opposition MP's will be booted out of Westminster....

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#40 Post by animist » March 23rd, 2013, 1:02 pm

I've noticed that some Scots want independence so that they be rid of our so-called nuclear deterrent. Why don't we kill two birds with one stone by moving it down to the Falklands to scare the Args? That way we get to keep both Scots and Falklanders :wink:

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#41 Post by Nick » March 23rd, 2013, 1:03 pm

Lifelinking wrote:There are some interesting things happening in the UK, such as Democracy 2015.
Doesn't that strike you as ludicrously naive?

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