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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#101 Post by Alan C. » September 22nd, 2013, 9:35 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

draykorinee
I had to google faslane.
We (Scotland) Are home to most of the UK nuclear "deterant" The Conservatives in the South of England are shitting themselves that following a yes vote, they might have to move the nukes into their own back yard.
Personally, I'd keep them here at a rent of astronomical proportions, (they'd probably pay up)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Fia
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#102 Post by Fia » September 22nd, 2013, 10:21 pm

Alan C. wrote:Personally, I'd keep them here at a rent of astronomical proportions
:thumbsup: Although I would love to see Scotland nuclear free I like that option :)

When I was a child, much of the world map was pink, designating the British Empire. My Great-grandmother had maps even pinker - wish I'd kept them now... But now we mostly know better that to deplete the resources and subjugate the local citizens. It would be a great relief to me to be in a country that doesn't consider itself so important it needs to police the world. I'd be mightily happy to live in a country that contributes much to the global good (Scotland's continuing scientific, innovative and cultural contributions) without having to get into bed with the gung-ho attitude from the many English public school yoiks in Westminster. They don't even like the French FFS - yet still eat fabby French food and holiday there.

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Justme
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#103 Post by Justme » September 23rd, 2013, 2:14 am

Alan C. wrote:Is there another/better way to run things.
Yes, but it entails exchanging the mindset of ownership to one of shared sacrifice. Most people are incapable of doing that because it requires selflessness, which is why true communism has and never will be achieved on this planet.
Hate, the offspring of fear cannot exist where understanding reigns supreme

petemster
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#104 Post by petemster » September 23rd, 2013, 2:23 am

.

Maybe so - but aren't we straying a bit too far from the original topic.

Perhaps a new thread ?

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#105 Post by Nick » September 23rd, 2013, 2:42 pm

Alan C. wrote:A bit off topic to what Nick and LL are discussing but something (a misconception) I think that needs to be brought up.
Nick
Indeed. And I'm not sure that it is destined to be decided before the referendum. So people won't know exactly what they may be letting themselves in for....
I expect we'll see a lot more of this scare mongering over the next twelve months and most of it will come from South of Gretna, Well I'm not buying it.
England and Wales stand to lose far more following a yes vote than Scotland does.
I believe Scotland contributes more per capita to the treasury than anywhere else in the Uk.
Image
Link.
Thanks very much for that, Alan. Most interesting, and lots to digest in your link (and further links!)

I am very pleased to see you are looking at data. But unfortunately, you are only looking at one side of the profit and loss account. Given that maybe 90% of oil and gas reserves are in "Scottish waters", and the total tax take of the industry is around £30 billion, (from here) (and that excludes taxes from supporting industries,) then it would be a surprise if it were otherwise than that, per head, the contribution is so high.

But that is only half the story. Government spending is maybe £1,400 per head more in Scotland than in England. The public sector in Scotland represents around 50% of the economy, whereas in the UK as a whole it is around 45%.

So two factors arise. First of all, even though Scotand may be generating more tax revenue per head, they may not be in surplus overall, because of their level of spending. So money is not necessarily flowing from Scotland to England.

Secondly, and more devastatingly, a huge source of revenue will be gone within a generation. I am very sceptical about Scotland's ability to replace it with equally tax-generative businesses.

Given the size of the industry, and the small size of the rest of the private sector within Scotland, the country is severely imbalanced. Take out North Sea revenues, and Scotland will be in a dire state.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#106 Post by Nick » September 23rd, 2013, 2:57 pm

lewist wrote:Hi, draykorinee, and welcome to TH.
INdeed! :thumbsup:
I'm a Scot and will vote for independence, for the Union of the Parliaments to be dismantled, the Act of 1707 to be repealed. The United Kingdom will continue, as no one has seriously suggested doing away with the 1603 union of the crowns.
Thanks fot that distinction.
Even the shambolic No campaigners are admitting that Scotland can be a successful and viable nation.
IN the short term, yes, in the longer term, I don't think that's right. (BTW, I don't regard myself as a campaigner, though I may be shambolic anyway :D )
It increasingly looks as if the English politicians are becoming worried about the prospect of losing our financial contribution. We get back far less than we contribute,
because of the enhanced public spending in Scotland, I'm not sure that's right.
and we hold the sources of energy, not just oil but most of the renewables.
None of which are yet viable without huge public subsidies. It is by no means certain that they can be developed further over and above other alternatives. If, for example, a way of delivering electricity over long distances were found, who is to say that Saharan sunshine would not be a better bet?
However, I'm interested in your assumption that it would be a good thing to have influence on the world stage. One of the events leading up the Act of Union was the Act Anent Peace and War, which was an assertion that foreign policy was a matter for parliament and not the crown. What's so great about being able to bully other nations in far flung places?
What if another nation (or even an extremist group) were to bully Scotland, over oil or fish....?

Maybe the world would be a better place if we were all pacifists, but that world hasn't arrived yet....

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#107 Post by Nick » September 23rd, 2013, 3:00 pm

Further to my response to Alan C. I would add that he is something of a slippery slope anyway. If, as you claim, Alan, Scotand raise more money in tax, and should therefore keep more of it for themselves, why does that not apply to higher rate tax-payers? Bankers, perhaps? :wink:

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#108 Post by Alan C. » September 23rd, 2013, 3:44 pm

Nick wrote:Further to my response to Alan C. I would add that he is something of a slippery slope anyway. If, as you claim, Alan, Scotand raise more money in tax, and should therefore keep more of it for themselves, why does that not apply to higher rate tax-payers? Bankers, perhaps? :wink:
I've been called a lot of things in my time.... but "a slippery slope"? :laughter:
As to your second point, a lot of them are wealthy enough that they can and do avoid tax completely.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#109 Post by Nick » September 23rd, 2013, 3:56 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Nick wrote:Further to my response to Alan C. I would add that he is something of a slippery slope anyway. If, as you claim, Alan, Scotand raise more money in tax, and should therefore keep more of it for themselves, why does that not apply to higher rate tax-payers? Bankers, perhaps? :wink:
I've been called a lot of things in my time.... but "a slippery slope"? :laughter:
:laughter: Sorry, Alan! I should of course have included the word "on"!

If it's an comfort to you, I am regularly called all sorts of things, from Father Christmas to Kenny Rogers, but last Friday came a new one: Poseidon. Made me quite proud, really.... :D
As to your second point, a lot of them are wealthy enough that they can and do avoid tax completely.
I presume from that reply that you do not think they are justified in doing so. :wink: Why should the Scots be any different, just because they already pay more tax....? Maybe, all the tax revenue raised in London should stay in London....? :wink:

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#110 Post by Alan C. » September 23rd, 2013, 7:37 pm

Nick
If it's an comfort to you, I am regularly called all sorts of things, from Father Christmas to Kenny Rogers, but last Friday came a new one: Poseidon. Made me quite proud, really.... :D
Poseidon is my user name on the Shetlink forum :)
I presume from that reply that you do not think they are justified in doing so. :wink: Why should the Scots be any different, just because they already pay more tax....? Maybe, all the tax revenue raised in London should stay in London....?
I don't understand your analogy, you'll need to spell it out.
I just think everyone should pay the tax that's due, to whichever government they live under, rather than evade/avoid it.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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animist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#111 Post by animist » September 23rd, 2013, 9:38 pm

Alan C. wrote:We (Scotland) Are home to most of the UK nuclear "deterrent". The Conservatives in the South of England are shitting themselves that following a yes vote, they might have to move the nukes into their own back yard.
Personally, I'd keep them here at a rent of astronomical proportions, (they'd probably pay up)
I doubt that we southern "rumpies" would want to either relocate this stupid and useless weapon or pay this rent - in fact, surely allowing the Sassenachs to keep it in Bonny Scotland, even at a huge rent, would defeat what I think a lot of Scots want: to be rid of the theoretical risk that the weapons could attract attack of some sort. I hope that Scotland does not secede in 2014, but one good effect of a secession might be the end of Trident!

thundril
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#112 Post by thundril » September 23rd, 2013, 10:04 pm

Er, Poseidon not wanting his trident? Wow!

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#113 Post by Alan C. » September 23rd, 2013, 10:52 pm

thundril
Er, Poseidon not wanting his trident? Wow!
That's not what I said tough, is it!
I said
Personally, I'd keep them here at a rent of astronomical proportions, (they'd probably pay up)
Please stop attributing things to me that I have never said, thanks.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#114 Post by Nick » September 24th, 2013, 2:28 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Nick wrote: If it's an comfort to you, I am regularly called all sorts of things, from Father Christmas to Kenny Rogers, but last Friday came a new one: Poseidon. Made me quite proud, really.... :D
Poseidon is my user name on the Shetlink forum :)
Then I'm even more proud! :D
I presume from that reply that you do not think they are justified in doing so. :wink: Why should the Scots be any different, just because they already pay more tax....? Maybe, all the tax revenue raised in London should stay in London....?
I don't understand your analogy, you'll need to spell it out.

I just think everyone should pay the tax that's due, to whichever government they live under, rather than evade/avoid it.
Leaving aside the evasion/avoidance debate, doesn't your assertion that everyone should pay the tax that's due, rather negate your argument that Scotland is paying too much tax, if they too are just paying what's due? :)

And what do you make of the proposition that it is the net of tax and spend, both immediately and in the medium term, which is important in deciding the financial viability of a particular model of government expenditure?

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animist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#115 Post by animist » September 24th, 2013, 5:02 pm

Alan C. wrote:
thundril
Er, Poseidon not wanting his trident? Wow!
That's not what I said tough, is it!
I said
Personally, I'd keep them here at a rent of astronomical proportions, (they'd probably pay up)
Please stop attributing things to me that I have never said, thanks.
Alan, I think thundril was making a joke, and not attributing things to you which you had not said :smile:

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#116 Post by Alan C. » September 24th, 2013, 7:09 pm

Nick
doesn't your assertion that everyone should pay the tax that's due, rather negate your argument that Scotland is paying too much tax, if they too are just paying what's due?
I never said Scotland was paying too much tax, I just stated the fact that Scotland contributes more than it gets back, a lot of folk in England seem to think it's the other way round.
animist
Alan, I think thundril was making a joke, and not attributing things to you which you had not said :smile:
If that's the case then I apologise to thundrill.
Both the independence issue and Trident tend to raise my ire. :)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#117 Post by Nick » September 30th, 2013, 5:23 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Nick
doesn't your assertion that everyone should pay the tax that's due, rather negate your argument that Scotland is paying too much tax, if they too are just paying what's due?
I never said Scotland was paying too much tax, I just stated the fact that Scotland contributes more than it gets back, a lot of folk in England seem to think it's the other way round.
I agree that most people doon sooth think that, but your graph has only showed gross contributions, not net contributions. So the flow may still be sooth to north.

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#118 Post by Alan C. » September 30th, 2013, 6:15 pm

Nick
I agree that most people doon sooth think that, but your graph has only showed gross contributions, not net contributions. So the flow may still be sooth to north.
May being the operative word, you're nitpicking Nick. :)
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

ranter
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#119 Post by ranter » October 11th, 2013, 8:48 pm

Hi,
I've had a look to see if this link has already been posted and I don't think it has.
Browse at you leisure, but if you start now you may have time to reach a more informed decision by next October
Enjoy! http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

:wave:

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#120 Post by Lifelinking » October 11th, 2013, 8:57 pm

Thanks Ranter. I am familiar with the site and it is good to have a link to it here. :)
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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