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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#61 Post by Lifelinking » September 16th, 2013, 1:01 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

I believe that you would be able to lawfully register if you spend as much time living in Scotland as you do at your other address.

Dumfries and Galloway is one of our favourite places btw. We often holiday there.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

petemster
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Joined: July 10th, 2007, 7:02 pm

Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#62 Post by petemster » September 16th, 2013, 2:26 pm

Hello Altfish,

I love Manchester.

Last time we were there was before that time when the drunken Rangers fans trashed Picadilly Gardens.
The local people we met were great.

Had a really enjoyable visit. One day we joined hundreds of, mostly young, people beside the Big Wheel,
watching a live rock group who were also projected onto the big screen in Corporation Street.
We took the brilliant Metro out to Salford Quays, checked out Old Trafford, visited the Lowry and had
coffee in the café with the sloping floor. Must be unique.
One evening Keith Allen did a one-man show outside the Town Hall.

Visited Chinatown, which is so cheerful looking. Then we had a few beers in Canal Street and nobody
tried to make an old man and wife feel at all out of place. All perfectly welcoming and friendly.
Just like the Printworks where everybody was having a good time.

We even had lunch one day at the Old Wellington Inn, outdoors, where we shared a large table with a
group of young Irish lads, who were totally and blissfully unaware of the recent history of the place.
Nobody tried to blame these nice youngsters for the bomb planted by the Provisional IRA.

So I'm sure that, if we visit Manchester again, nobody will try to blame my wife and me for the
thuggish behaviour of those drunken Rangers fans.
And I'm sure you yourself wouldn't expect anything like that to happen.

It does raise an important point though - which refers back to Getreal's original post, and the title
of this thread : Sectarianism in Scotland.
This is Scotland's shame and we don't know what, if anything, can be done about it.
It's the one reservation that I have about an independent Scotland.

When I indulge in unfounded speculation about living in one "Britain" I sometimes wonder if, in the
event of our two big football clubs playing alongside bigger fish than themselves, this might destroy
the moronic mentality of the bigots. It's a nice thought but probably unrealistic.

Regarding the rest of your message, I wouldn't want my examples of "English" unawareness of
Scotland to become a big issue. For one thing, even where this attitude does exist, I don't think
it is meant to offend in any way.
And for another thing, speaking about "the English" or "the Scottish" or "the French", or whatever
- these are examples of racism that we all deplore, and certainly want to keep out of the independence
debate.
Which brings me to the question of co-operation between countries.
Ignoring the fact that Scotland, England etc. are currently not countries, merely regions within the
United Kingdom, I wholeheartedly support your view that countries should work together.
That's exactly why I support Scottish and English independence! So that we can work together -
as independent countries, rather than as one big country dominating its smaller neighbours.
As I said already, an independent Scotland would be eager to work with its neighbours in matters
that are of mutual benefit.

Anyway, it might not happen, if the opinion polls are to be believed.
But taking account of our strengths and weaknesses, our problems of sectarianism and whatever else,
some of us feel that, without offence or prejudice to anyone else, we have a right and, hopefully,
the courage to go for it.

And we would still love our neighbours. :-)

Pete M.

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#63 Post by Nick » September 17th, 2013, 3:35 pm

Altfish wrote:
petemster wrote:.
Maybe we could all just be, "Britain" (without the misnomer,"Great" preferably).
Scotland would be "North Britain" and England-Wales would be "South Britain".
How does that sound?
The 'Great' in Great Britain, IIRC, was added when Scotland joined the union, it is meant to be 'Greater Britain'. So, I suppose you could argue that if Scotland devolves the 'Great' should be dropped.
Hmmm.... I always thought that the "Great" in Great Britain was because of its association with, and relative size to, Brittany, and the Norman Conquest. But perhaps I am wrong....?

ETA: Here's Wiki:
Derivation of "Great"[edit source | editbeta]After the Anglo-Saxon period, Britain was used as a historical term only. Geoffrey of Monmouth in his pseudohistorical Historia Regum Britanniae (c. 1136) refers to the island of Great Britain as Britannia major ("Greater Britain"), to distinguish it from Britannia minor ("Lesser Britain"), the continental region which approximates to modern Brittany, which had been settled in the fifth and sixth centuries by Celtic immigrants from the British Isles[33]. The term Great Britain was first used officially in 1474, in the instrument drawing up the proposal for a marriage between Cecily the daughter of Edward IV of England, and James the son of James III of Scotland, which described it as "this Nobill Isle, callit Gret Britanee." As noted above it was used again in 1604, when King James VI and I styled himself "King of Great Brittaine, France and Ireland."

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#64 Post by Nick » September 17th, 2013, 3:54 pm

A couple of points:
petemster wrote:"Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Hitler, if you think old England's done?"
This isn't an attempt to upset Scots. We should realise that Scotland is meant to be included.
It's part of England!
Well, actually, no it isn't.
Hitler was planning to cross the Channel. Which doesn't, so far as I know, have a Scottish shoreline. Leave teh song alone!
The Bank of England would become the "Bank of Britain" ( & N.I.) ?
More likely to be called the Community Bank or some such guff. :wink:

The (English) Football Association would become the BFA and accept Scottish teams, as it has accepted Welsh teams (Cardiff, Swansea)?
How about it? Good idea ?
You think Scots would acccept that...? Not really!
An independent Scotland wouldn't be parochial. Like other small countries it would be eager to have representation on international bodies, like the E.E. and U.N.O.
EE? Do you mean EU? Just how much clout do you think Scotland would wield in such circumstances? That may not be important, but if that is the case, then the yearning to break free of the English yoke is lessened, wouldn't you say?

And not even having control of your own currency and interest rates doesn't strike me as being very independent....
It would have its own voice, and it would make its own decisions.
So Scotland is leaving the EU too....?
:wink:

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#65 Post by Alan C. » September 17th, 2013, 10:09 pm

Nick
So Scotland is leaving the EU too....?
:wink:
I would hope so, why not? (keep it short :) )
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

petemster
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#66 Post by petemster » September 17th, 2013, 11:34 pm

.

Nick wrote :

>>> Hitler was planning to cross the Channel. Which doesn't, so far as I know,
have a Scottish shoreline. Leave teh(!) song alone!

And here I thought he was just using that as a route to the real prize : Hadrian's Wall.
Let's try adifferent song : There'll Always Be An England
- "Red,white and blue; what does it mean to you?"
It means the United Kingdom to me.
- "Britons awake."
So, are we included or not?
My point, which I tried to make in an inoffensive way, is that we, in Scotland, are not
English. And, again no offence, we are not grateful to be subsumed under that heading.
But keep up the good work - you could soon be one of Alec Salmond's biggest assets!


>>> EE? Do you mean EU?

Yes. My mistake. We all do it sometimes, but I am withdrawing my application to be
future Scottish dictator - on the grouds of incompetence.


>>> Just how much clout do you think Scotland would yield in such circumstances?

With regard to issues that require a unanimous vote - the same as other members.
With regard to issues involving Qualified Majority Voting - proportionate to population.
Equal to, or greater than, twelve existing EU member states.


>>> That may not be important, but if that is the case, then the yearning to break free
of the English yoke is lessened, wouldn't you say?

I'd say : ask the Republic of Ireland that question.
I'd also say it's more a desire to speak for ourselves - a positive aspiration - irrespective
of who the "yokers" might be.


>>> And not having control of your own currency and interest rates doesn't strike me
as being very independent ....

We're well accustomed to not having control of our own currency and interest rates.
It could be done - like Denmark or Sweden - but that wouldn't be my preference.
We can't have everything.


>>> So Scotland is leaving the EU too ....?

You wish! Scotland would still be able to decide whether or not to join those who
attack or invade foreign countries, or whether or not to have a nuclear weapons base
situated twenty miles from where I'm sitting at the moment.
These would be Scotland's decisions.
But you're right. Scotland would lose its MPs and its influence at Westminster, which
seems to be a worry for some anti-Conservative English voters.
Which makes me wonder. Are you really just a closet independence supporter?

Pete M.

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#67 Post by Alan H » September 18th, 2013, 12:27 am

Alan C. wrote:
Nick
So Scotland is leaving the EU too....?
:wink:
I would hope so, why not? (keep it short :) )
I would hope not. We need closer ties between countries, not isolation.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#68 Post by Altfish » September 18th, 2013, 7:45 am

Nick wrote:
Altfish wrote:
petemster wrote:.
Maybe we could all just be, "Britain" (without the misnomer,"Great" preferably).
Scotland would be "North Britain" and England-Wales would be "South Britain".
How does that sound?
The 'Great' in Great Britain, IIRC, was added when Scotland joined the union, it is meant to be 'Greater Britain'. So, I suppose you could argue that if Scotland devolves the 'Great' should be dropped.
Hmmm.... I always thought that the "Great" in Great Britain was because of its association with, and relative size to, Brittany, and the Norman Conquest. But perhaps I am wrong....?

ETA: Here's Wiki:
Derivation of "Great"[edit source | editbeta]After the Anglo-Saxon period, Britain was used as a historical term only. Geoffrey of Monmouth in his pseudohistorical Historia Regum Britanniae (c. 1136) refers to the island of Great Britain as Britannia major ("Greater Britain"), to distinguish it from Britannia minor ("Lesser Britain"), the continental region which approximates to modern Brittany, which had been settled in the fifth and sixth centuries by Celtic immigrants from the British Isles[33]. The term Great Britain was first used officially in 1474, in the instrument drawing up the proposal for a marriage between Cecily the daughter of Edward IV of England, and James the son of James III of Scotland, which described it as "this Nobill Isle, callit Gret Britanee." As noted above it was used again in 1604, when King James VI and I styled himself "King of Great Brittaine, France and Ireland."
I stand corrected, you learn something every day.

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#69 Post by Altfish » September 18th, 2013, 7:47 am

Remind me, what are the plans for the devolved Scottish monetary system...it used to be joining the Euro, I assume that has been rethought?

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#70 Post by Nick » September 18th, 2013, 5:11 pm

Altfish wrote:Remind me, what are the plans for the devolved Scottish monetary system...it used to be joining the Euro, I assume that has been rethought?
Yes, indeed. They were all gung-ho for the Euro. Makes them look somewhat silly now, eh? :wink:

Their policy (for now) is to keep the pound, even though they won't have any control over interest rates. Wait for the squeals of anguish as their borrowing costs rise, financial assets leave, and there's nothing they can do about it. (Except blame England, of course.... :wink: )

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#71 Post by Nick » September 18th, 2013, 5:24 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Nick
So Scotland is leaving the EU too....?
:wink:
I would hope so, why not? (keep it short :) )
TBH, I think Cameron has exactly the right policy on the EU. (And I'm not saying that because he's a Tory!) here are lots of reasons why the EU ought to be a good thing, eg open markets, co-operation with arrests, climate change etc etc.

But OTOH, their accounts haven't been signed off as true and fair for a couple of decades, there is vast wastage, especially with agriculture, there is too much regulation, too much interference in affairs which properly belong to nation states (which they want to increase), and the Euro has been a complete and utter disaster.

So: try to reform it, up to and including threatening to leave. Most of the arguments against that seem to be warnings of the reactions that our so-called European partners would lash out with, if we actually decided to leave. Which, to my mind, rather calls into question their friendship in the first place.

Is that short enough.....? :wink:

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#72 Post by Nick » September 18th, 2013, 5:55 pm

petemster wrote:Nick wrote :

>>> Hitler was planning to cross the Channel. Which doesn't, so far as I know,
have a Scottish shoreline. Leave the song alone!

And here I thought he was just using that as a route to the real prize : Hadrian's Wall.
Let's try adifferent song : There'll Always Be An England
- "Red,white and blue; what does it mean to you?"
It means the United Kingdom to me.
- "Britons awake."
So, are we included or not?
My point, which I tried to make in an inoffensive way, is that we, in Scotland, are not English. And, again no offence, we are not grateful to be subsumed under that heading.
But keep up the good work - you could soon be one of Alec Salmond's biggest assets!
My friend Lewist has made me very aware of the casual disregard for Scots which pervades society in general, especially in the broadcast media. eg "British education system" etc. I'm learning... :wink:

>>> EE? Do you mean EU?

Yes. My mistake. We all do it sometimes, but I am withdrawing my application to be future Scottish dictator - on the grounds of incompetence.
I don't think that would prevent your candidacy....! :wink:
>>> Just how much clout do you think Scotland would yield in such circumstances?

With regard to issues that require a unanimous vote - the same as other members.
With regard to issues involving Qualified Majority Voting - proportionate to population.
Equal to, or greater than, twelve existing EU member states.
Good answer. But, IMO, not really in tune with the rhetoric, blaming being yoked to England, etc.
>>> That may not be important, but if that is the case, then the yearning to break free
of the English yoke is lessened, wouldn't you say?

I'd say : ask the Republic of Ireland that question.
I'd also say it's more a desire to speak for ourselves - a positive aspiration - irrespective
of who the "yokers" might be.
Again, a good answer. Just so long as they don't complain about it later, and expect me to do something about it!
>>> And not having control of your own currency and interest rates doesn't strike me
as being very independent ....

We're well accustomed to not having control of our own currency and interest rates.
It could be done - like Denmark or Sweden - but that wouldn't be my preference.
We can't have everything.
I'll keep that filed away for future use.... :wink:
>>> So Scotland is leaving the EU too ....?

You wish! Scotland would still be able to decide whether or not to join those who
attack or invade foreign countries, or whether or not to have a nuclear weapons base situated twenty miles from where I'm sitting at the moment.
I wish? Not exactly (see elsewhere...) And defence is not (yet ) an EU matter, is it?
These would be Scotland's decisions.
But you're right. Scotland would lose its MPs and its influence at Westminster, which seems to be a worry for some anti-Conservative English voters.
Which makes me wonder. Are you really just a closet independence supporter?
I'd describe myself as being devo-max. :)

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#73 Post by Altfish » September 18th, 2013, 6:18 pm

Can I just say, I'm sick of the coverage this topic is getting already.
I'm dreading what it is going to be like in 11-months time :sad2:

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#74 Post by Lifelinking » September 18th, 2013, 7:34 pm

Their policy (for now) is to keep the pound, even though they won't have any control over interest rates. Wait for the squeals of anguish as their borrowing costs rise, financial assets leave, and there's nothing they can do about it. (Except blame England, of course....
The use of terms like ‘squeals of anguish’ and ‘blame England, of course’ is, :sad: disappointing. Setting this aside, I will restrict myself to addressing the underlying point. The Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England (a body owned by taxpayers across the UK) presently makes decisions about interest rates and currency in the interests of the UK economy as a whole. Both the Treasury and the Fiscal Commission Working group have stated that the arrangements for the membership of committees and supervision of the BofE would require to be negotiated in the event of Scottish Independence. The FCWG have proposed that shares in the bank should be allocated according to population / the size of each country's economy, and agreement reached on the supervision of the bank and the membership of committees on that basis. If there is an independent Scotland that continues to use Sterling after the referendum, we would in effect have a ‘Sterling Zone’, and the BofE would continue to set interest rates in the best interests of price stability across that zone, just as it does now, free from interference by governments.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
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etoile
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#75 Post by etoile » September 18th, 2013, 9:44 pm

Lifelinking wrote: If there is an independent Scotland that continues to use Sterling after the referendum, we would in effect have a ‘Sterling Zone’, and the BofE would continue to set interest rates in the best interests of price stability across that zone, just as it does now, free from interference by governments.
During the initial break-up maybe but a shared currency without shared national interests (and I imagine intensifying competition )doesn't seem likely to be a long term solution. Should Scotland become independent it's possible the English public will agitate for separation of all those shared institutions, and quite possibly the Welsh, and why not the Irish.

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#76 Post by Fia » September 18th, 2013, 9:50 pm

Nick wrote:I'd describe myself as being devo-max.
Interesting, I would have unequivocally supported that option. But as we're not being offered it....

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#77 Post by Lifelinking » September 18th, 2013, 11:12 pm

During the initial break-up maybe but a shared currency without shared national interests (and I imagine intensifying competition )doesn't seem likely to be a long term solution. Should Scotland become independent it's possible the English public will agitate for separation of all those
shared institutions, and quite possibly the Welsh, and why not the Irish.
Maybe, but I suspect not. I think you may underestimate the shared economic interests, business and trade that would continue, not to mention the social and cultural ties. I guess that once the decision is made one way or the other, only time will tell. :)
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#78 Post by Lifelinking » September 18th, 2013, 11:14 pm

But as we're not being offered it...
If there is a yes majority, the decision to block that option may yet be looked back on as a tactical mistake by pro-unionists.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#79 Post by Fia » September 18th, 2013, 11:29 pm

Agreed LL. It would be as much of a coup as the yes/yes vote for devolution and tax raising powers, which was wholly unexpected by Westminster at the time. But now I think many of us on the fence -however wobbly- only have the stark yes/no choice, rather than devo-max. Which is completely uncharted waters...

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#80 Post by Nick » September 19th, 2013, 3:43 pm

Lifelinking wrote:The use of terms like ‘squeals of anguish’ and ‘blame England, of course’ is, :sad: disappointing.
Quite possibly...
Setting this aside, I will restrict myself to addressing the underlying point. The Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England (a body owned by taxpayers across the UK) presently makes decisions about interest rates and currency in the interests of the UK economy as a whole. Both the Treasury and the Fiscal Commission Working group have stated that the arrangements for the membership of committees and supervision of the BofE would require to be negotiated in the event of Scottish Independence. The FCWG have proposed that shares in the bank should be allocated according to population / the size of each country's economy, and agreement reached on the supervision of the bank and the membership of committees on that basis. If there is an independent Scotland that continues to use Sterling after the referendum, we would in effect have a ‘Sterling Zone’, and the BofE would continue to set interest rates in the best interests of price stability across that zone, just as it does now, free from interference by governments.
Indeed.

But I think it is highly likely that we will see a repeat of the situation we have seen in recent decades, when the north complained bitterly (if you'll pardon the phrase) that interest rates have been set for the bubbling south, not the struggling north. Remember such phrases as "unemployment is a price worth paying for price stability". And on a basis of population, the MPC would be dominated by English members, with a single Scottish member. Not brilliant for Scotland, IMO.

There has also been a recent study by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research (hardly a right wing outfit), which make interesting and sobering reading for any would-be independent Scot.

From memory, the relevant points are: 90% of oil and gas will be transfered to Scotland, based on geography. The National Debt will be split on the basis of population, which will land Scotland with a National Debt of 86% of their national income. At those levels, for a new country, the rate of interest chargeable on government debt would be somewhere around 1% higher than for the UK as a whole. That is, higher than that currently paid by Spain and Italy. In order to comply with the EU Agreement, that overall debt should be below 60% of GDP, that will require a reduction in spending, or an increase in taxes of over 5% of GDP. By contrast, the Coalition is planning a 1.5% reduction in spending this coming year. Even if it is carried out over several years, the Scots aint gonna like it.

Furthermore, their economy will be dangerously reliant on volatile oil and gas revenues, where growth is very limited, and financial returns could as soon drop 10% as rise at all. I fear it will all end in tears. They talk about emulating the Norwegian Sovereign wealth funds, while at the same time not being prepared to rein back the spending of "our" oil revenues on current expenditure of limited long-term economic benefit which would be required to achieve that..

There is fair amount of feelings of "sod off, then" in England. IIRC, surveys show that independence for Scotland is more popular in England than it is in Scotland! Answering the West Lothian Question by getting rid of Scottish MP's seems to have a certain charm for some!

Without the Scottish MP's there would be a decisive move to the right in England. Whatever the social merits of that, I think it is likely that economic activity would further migrate south as a result.

It's not my decision, but I'd be concerned at the prospect of an independent Scotland if I were a Scot.

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#81 Post by Lifelinking » September 19th, 2013, 6:28 pm

Thank you for a very interesting (and pejorative free) post.

This National Institute of Economic and Social Research report into Scotland’s Currency Options published today highlights the same issues you mention. It explores the three options of retaining Sterling, having a new currency or the Euro. The authors do make the point that:
There has been no meaningful discussion to date between the two governments on dividing the existing UK public debt and how an independent Scotland would in practice transfer the funds to the continuing UK. A definitive answer to the currency question is impossible as long as this issue is unresolved.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
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