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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#41 Post by Nick » March 23rd, 2013, 1:03 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Lifelinking wrote:There are some interesting things happening in the UK, such as Democracy 2015.
Doesn't that strike you as ludicrously naive?

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#42 Post by Alan H » March 23rd, 2013, 1:09 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Lifelinking wrote:I think you are right that we seem to have a greater cultural predisposition towards social democracy. Personally, I would like to see stronger mechanisms for participatory democracy, and more of them. A big question for me therefore, is whether this would be more likely in an Independent Scotland or with Devolution.
I think that is something we'd all like to see. Perhaps we need it more that ever in England, so it would be good to get that fixed at Westminster first (but I won't be holding my breath!). However, I see the attraction of divorcing yourselves from the vile Tories we're lumbered with. Unfortunately, I see Alex Salmond as just about as vile! Hobson's choice. Maybe the answer is independence, but get rid of the SNP as soon afterwards as possible?
Unfortunately for you, Alan, if Scotland does opt for independence, then the Tories will have a greatly enhanced chance of being re-elected, as all those Scottish opposition MP's will be booted out of Westminster....
Yes. Another dire consequence of Scottish independence.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#43 Post by Altfish » March 23rd, 2013, 5:08 pm

getreal wrote:I'm not talking as individuals, altfish, but as a nation. I'm sure there are many people in England who share our values. But not the majority-otherwise the government would be different, surely?
I don't think England thinks of itself as a 'Nation' as fervently Scotland does; if asked my nationality, I will normally say British rather than English. Although, ever since sitting in a Scottish pub watching an England game, I'm starting to say English more. (I couldn't believe the 'anyone but England' attitude!)

IMHO most people north of the Midlands would rather be seperated from the rest of England and have little affinity with the south east. Similarly, most people in London get vertigo if they head north of Watford. Look at the BBC staff moving to Salford, anyone would have thought it was Siberia they were being moved to.

I must admit though Salmond lost all credibility with me when he started courting that idiot Trump.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#44 Post by Lifelinking » March 23rd, 2013, 9:12 pm

Doesn't that strike you as ludicrously naive?

Not really Nick, no. I think it is symptomatic of a very deep malaise that exists in our machinery of government. The existence of bodies such as Democracy 2015 or the Five Star Movement in Italy reflects the fact that we have allowed the growth of a professional class of politician, of all parties, that is only capable of thinking in terms of its own success in winning and holding on to power and has completely lost sight of any concept of actually representing the people in their constituencies. Parliamentary debate is not used in the spirit of seeking answers to important questions of truth, but to point score against other members of the professional elite who happen to be on the other side and feed sound bites to a media that is every bit as jaded and callous as they are. Leadership is only thought of in terms of leading a party towards gaining and holding on to power; and the tools of manipulation, obfuscation and spin are ruthlessly applied to that end. And, oh yes, the idea that we might actually aspire to something more than this, is cynically written off as naive.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#45 Post by Lifelinking » September 15th, 2013, 3:11 am

I have signed the Yes Declaration. If so disposed you can do so here.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

lewist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#46 Post by lewist » September 15th, 2013, 8:50 am

Lifelinking wrote:I have signed the Yes Declaration. If so disposed you can do so here.
As have I, Life. I can see no other way forward. A no vote is frightening.
Carpe diem. Savour every moment.

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#47 Post by Alan H » September 15th, 2013, 11:47 am

lewist wrote:A no vote is frightening.
It is a balance between the lesser of two evils as I see it: be confronted with the possibility of more terms of vile, self-serving and selfishTory rule from Westminster, or the petty parochial and vaguely xenophobic politics of Salmond and his cronies. Hobson's choice.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#48 Post by Lifelinking » September 15th, 2013, 1:00 pm

It does sort of feel that way Alan, yes. This is a constitutional question however, about how what shape we want our system of democracy to take, rather than a party political one. Less centralised, more representative more participatory and more secular, I hope.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

Fia
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#49 Post by Fia » September 15th, 2013, 3:29 pm

I don't actually know anyone now who plans to vote No. Although still on the fence I'm leaning precariously towards Yes. I think Scotland has a great opportunity to work out how a fair, inclusive and participatory democracy can be.

My reticence to commit as yet is concern for the Tory wasteland that England will continue to spiral down. It feels slightly selfish to condemn England to the growing mess... But then, as we in Scotland have an opportunity to do better it feels churlish to not grasp it.

My daughters are horrified I might possibly vote No. They plead with me to give Scotland's young folk a better future. If they are prepared to take that chance, perhaps I should too...

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#50 Post by Alan C. » September 15th, 2013, 6:32 pm

Two yes votes in this house.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#51 Post by Lifelinking » September 15th, 2013, 8:37 pm

:thumbsup:
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan H
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#52 Post by Alan H » September 15th, 2013, 8:48 pm

It does seem to me thought that voting yes purely or mainly for the negative reason of getting away from a vile Tory Westminster Government shouldn't be sufficient reason. It must be more important to do it for positive reasons for independence, surely?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#53 Post by Lifelinking » September 15th, 2013, 9:15 pm

I agree Alan. This is one of the things that convinced me to commit to a yes vote. For those who wish for a fairer, more equitable social democracy where business and enterprise will also be able to thrive, there is a very strong positive case for independence. The idea that these two areas are mutually exclusive is simply not true. There are plenty of examples of countries that balance social justice with strong economies. You may note with some dismay as I did, that by contrast the 'Better Together' campaign has been largely characterised by negativity and scaremongering. I prefer hope, ambition and aspiration to hopelessness, a sense of inferiority and kowtowing for scraps.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

petemster
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#54 Post by petemster » September 15th, 2013, 10:34 pm

.

I love England.

As tourists, my wife and I have visited dozens of English cities, towns and villages and,
with one exception, experienced great friendliness everywhere we went. The one exception
was Blackpool. Have we Scots done something to upset the Blackpudlians ?

To be honest, I'm not fanatical about this nationality thing. Scottish, British, citizen of the
World - they're all fine by me. But - no offence - I'm not English.

It took me a long time to work out what the confusion is here. Almost everybody in the world,
if they have heard of Scotland at all, think it's in England. Americans, Europeans, they're
actually taught that England is an island - which includes Scotland.
What surprises me most, is the number of English people who think that Scotland is part of England.
On one occasion our hotel manager in London said : "Of course we accept Scottish money.
After all, Scotland is in England."

"Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Hitler, if you think old England's done?"
This isn't an attempt to upset Scots. We should realise that Scotland is meant to be included.
It's part of England!
Well, actually, no it isn't.

Maybe we could all just be, "Britain" (without the misnomer,"Great" preferably).
Scotland would be "North Britain" and England-Wales would be "South Britain".
How does that sound?
The Bank of England would become the "Bank of Britain" ( & N.I.) ?
The (English) Football Association would become the BFA and accept Scottish teams, as it has
accepted Welsh teams (Cardiff, Swansea)?
How about it? Good idea ?

An independent Scotland wouldn't be parochial. Like other small countries it would be eager to
have representation on international bodies, like the E.E. and U.N.O.
It would be be only too pleased to be on the map!
It would be happy to co-operate with its neighbours in mutually beneficial matters, like the
fight against terrorism, but wouldn't get dragged into foreign wars and invasions against its will.
It would have its own voice, and it would make its own decisions.

So why would anyone want to oppose that ?

Pete M.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#55 Post by Lifelinking » September 15th, 2013, 10:47 pm

Cool post Pete. For the record, I love England too.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#56 Post by Altfish » September 16th, 2013, 7:45 am

petemster wrote:.
Maybe we could all just be, "Britain" (without the misnomer,"Great" preferably).
Scotland would be "North Britain" and England-Wales would be "South Britain".
How does that sound?
The 'Great' in Great Britain, IIRC, was added when Scotland joined the union, it is meant to be 'Greater Britain'. So, I suppose you could argue that if Scotland devolves the 'Great' should be dropped.

Under no circumstances will I be labelled southern. It's bad enough having to admit that I live in south Manchester.

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#57 Post by Altfish » September 16th, 2013, 8:26 am

Pete M
I meant to say, I'll try to do a longer reply to your post from an English perspective.

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#58 Post by Altfish » September 16th, 2013, 9:40 am

As promised a (northern) English perspective...
petemster wrote:I love England.

As tourists, my wife and I have visited dozens of English cities, towns and villages and,
with one exception, experienced great friendliness everywhere we went. The one exception
was Blackpool. Have we Scots done something to upset the Blackpudlians?

To be honest, I'm not fanatical about this nationality thing. Scottish, British, citizen of the
World - they're all fine by me. But - no offence - I'm not English.
Change England to Scotland and Blackpool to Denny and I could repeat the statement word for word.
As for upsetting Blackpool, well there used to be Glasgow Wakes Week – an invasion of drunken sassenachs.
I’m surprised you didn’t find trouble in Manchester after the state the city was left in by Ranger’s supporters in 2008!
petemster wrote:It took me a long time to work out what the confusion is here. Almost everybody in the world, if they have heard of Scotland at all, think it's in England. Americans, Europeans, they're actually taught that England is an island - which includes Scotland.
What surprises me most is the number of English people who think that Scotland is part of England.
On one occasion our hotel manager in London said: "Of course we accept Scottish money.
After all, Scotland is in England."
The Yanks are notably poor at this and rightly get ridiculed by Scots and English alike when they make this mistake. But an awful lot of Yanks couldn’t point to the countries they are currently at war with if you gave them a globe. I’ve not come across it elsewhere but must admit I don’t recall having Scottish related conversations with Italians or Latvians.
I have had problems with Scottish money in England myself and I try to off-load it before I leave Scotland. But, I have never had anyone say, "Of course we accept Scottish money. After all, Scotland is in England.” or anything remotely similar. If he was a hotel manager in London, he is unlikely to be British, sorry English.
petemster wrote:"Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Hitler, if you think old England's done?"
This isn't an attempt to upset Scots. We should realise that Scotland is meant to be included.
It's part of England!
Well, actually, no it isn't.
Not sure what you are saying here, if you are criticising the song, fair enough, but have you heard Roger Whittacker’s song Durham Town? “Sitting on the banks of the River Tyne” – no, shouldn’t that be River Wear. What I’m trying to say, is song lyrics are often bollox.
petemster wrote:Maybe we could all just be, "Britain" (without the misnomer, "Great" preferably).
Scotland would be "North Britain" and England-Wales would be "South Britain".
How does that sound?
The Bank of England would become the "Bank of Britain" ( & N.I.) ?
The (English) Football Association would become the BFA and accept Scottish teams, as it has accepted Welsh teams (Cardiff, Swansea)?
How about it? Good idea?
Addressed much of this already; names like “The Bank of England” are just left over from a by-gone age. If it were to be created today it would be named differently.
I’m surprised you’ve not mentioned cricket or the English tennis player, what’s his name, Murray!
As for football; it was Scotland who decided to set up their own FA, way back in 1873, it is the second oldest in the world, after the FA.
I stand to be corrected here, but wasn’t there an offer some years back for the top clubs to join the English and Welsh league, but they had to start at the bottom and work their way up. A bit like Rangers are currently doing in Scotland. It would also affect Scotland’s ability (and possible Wales and NI) to field their own football team in World Cups and the like.
By the way, I’m not bothered about the English football team, they are a London side.
petemster wrote:An independent Scotland wouldn't be parochial. Like other small countries it would be eager to have representation on international bodies, like the E.E. and U.N.O.
It would be only too pleased to be on the map!
It would be happy to co-operate with its neighbours in mutually beneficial matters, like the fight against terrorism, but wouldn't get dragged into foreign wars and invasions against its will.
It would have its own voice, and it would make its own decisions.
I think you could say that about England; certainly about getting dragged into wars we don’t want. How did the Scottish Labour MPs vote on, say, the Iraq war – I don’t know, I’m just asking.
As a northerner (ok, only northern England) I too feel totally disenfranchised from the London centric country I live in. For that reason I feel an affinity to Scotland’s politics. But, I balk at many of Alex Salmond’s policies and, as I’ve said before, in cosying up to that nutcase Donald Trump he lost all credibility with me.
petemster wrote: So why would anyone want to oppose that?
Because countries should be working together, not seeking more separation.
Shouldn’t England, Wales, NI have a say in this matter (i.e. have a vote) because it will affect us too?
I believe that Scotland (and England, Wales, NI) is stronger together.
On a personal note (and one of the reasons I should have a vote) I fear that with the loss of all the Labour MPs north of the border, England, Wales and NI could become a permanent Tory country.

Unfortunately, England because of its colonial past, has become the ‘bad boy’ of the Union. We can’t even fly our flag because it has been hijacked by racists.
I can’t help that, I don’t see how I can change it.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#59 Post by Lifelinking » September 16th, 2013, 11:33 am

On a personal note (and one of the reasons I should have a vote) I fear that with the loss of all the Labour MPs north of the border, England, Wales and NI could become a permanent Tory country.

Hey Altfish, If you want a vote there is still plenty time to move to Scotland and get yourself on the electoral roll :)
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Altfish
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#60 Post by Altfish » September 16th, 2013, 12:37 pm

Lifelinking wrote:
On a personal note (and one of the reasons I should have a vote) I fear that with the loss of all the Labour MPs north of the border, England, Wales and NI could become a permanent Tory country.

Hey Altfish, If you want a vote there is still plenty time to move to Scotland and get yourself on the electoral roll :)
If truth be known, I could easily get myself a vote; I have a half-share in a cottage in Dumfries & Galloway and each year I get an electoral role card for, I could easily add my name....

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#61 Post by Lifelinking » September 16th, 2013, 1:01 pm

I believe that you would be able to lawfully register if you spend as much time living in Scotland as you do at your other address.

Dumfries and Galloway is one of our favourite places btw. We often holiday there.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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