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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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getreal
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Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#1 Post by getreal » October 18th, 2009, 5:32 pm

The Scottish Nationalist Party held their annual conference this week where they reiterated their plans for a referendum on scottish independance. No change there then.

The Orange Order have now announced that they will mobilise their supporters to defend the British Union.

Am I alone in being alarmed at the possibility of an election being fought on religious affiliation?

I once heard Boris Johnstone talk about the separation of the Uk into separate countries as being the "Balkanisation of Britain" and I laughed.

I'm not laughing now.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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grammar king
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#2 Post by grammar king » October 18th, 2009, 5:36 pm

I think you give the religious aspect too much credit. That said, an election fought on sectarian grounds, religious or not, is a scary enough thought.

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#3 Post by Alan C. » October 18th, 2009, 6:42 pm

The government should make the Orangemen pay for the policing of their silly parades, they would be out of business in no time.
What the hell kind of "men" are they that would let somebody tell them how to vote in a democratic election?
In Glasgow last year, the Orange Order marched 183 times, while related organisations, such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, marched 40 times and the Black Institute, 24.
the chief constable of Strathclyde Police revealed that the bill for policing three Orange Order events in July came to almost £1 million, a sum the force can ill afford, as it is facing a £200m deficit.
What must it be costing us as taxpayers to police 183 of these sectarian shindigs?
The "marches" should all be banned unless they pick up the tab for the cost of policing them.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#4 Post by Lifelinking » October 18th, 2009, 6:48 pm

This is kinda ingrained in the Scottish Political scene. The Orange Order has rattled that sabre before, and there is a traditional base of support for the labour party among people of Irish Catholic heritage. The SNP very shrewdly went out to woo these very voters (and the Muslim vote for that matter) prior to the last Scottish election. I am not too sure if the sectarian divides are deep enough to be really concerned about, though I agree it is a scary and rather unpleasant thought.
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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grammar king
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#5 Post by grammar king » October 18th, 2009, 7:57 pm

Alan C. wrote:The government should make the Orangemen pay for the policing of their silly parades, they would be out of business in no time.
What the hell kind of "men" are they that would let somebody tell them how to vote in a democratic election?
In Glasgow last year, the Orange Order marched 183 times, while related organisations, such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, marched 40 times and the Black Institute, 24.
the chief constable of Strathclyde Police revealed that the bill for policing three Orange Order events in July came to almost £1 million, a sum the force can ill afford, as it is facing a £200m deficit.
What must it be costing us as taxpayers to police 183 of these sectarian shindigs?
The "marches" should all be banned unless they pick up the tab for the cost of policing them.
You got the link for that? I'd like to add it to a blogpost I made earlier in the year.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#6 Post by Lifelinking » October 18th, 2009, 8:03 pm

Not sure if it is the same source Alan used but the BBC reported on it here
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#7 Post by Alan C. » October 18th, 2009, 8:26 pm

G K
You got the link for that? I'd like to add it to a blogpost I made earlier in the year.
Oops sorry I forgot to add the link. I read it in
The Scotsman
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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grammar king
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#8 Post by grammar king » October 18th, 2009, 9:15 pm

Cheers, here's that blog post if anyone's interested.

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Alan C.
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#9 Post by Alan C. » October 18th, 2009, 9:43 pm

Good blog G K and good comments as well.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#10 Post by getreal » October 20th, 2009, 12:25 pm

Sorry, I didn't intend to post and run away. (I came down with some kind of bug)

Having been brought up the west of scotland, I am very concerned about this issue.
Concerned enough to consider changing who I will vote for at the next elections.

Re the cost of policeing parades, I thought that the orange order payed for these.
I should have reslised they didn't as sectarianism is carved into the souls of many Scottish people, with a rusty stanley knife.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Lifelinking
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#11 Post by Lifelinking » October 20th, 2009, 12:50 pm

Hope you are feeling better Getreal.

....rusty stanley knife :laughter:
"Who thinks the law has anything to do with justice? It's what we have because we can't have justice."
William McIlvanney

Compassionist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#12 Post by Compassionist » October 20th, 2009, 1:30 pm

Alan C. wrote:The government should make the Orangemen pay for the policing of their silly parades, they would be out of business in no time.
What the hell kind of "men" are they that would let somebody tell them how to vote in a democratic election?
In Glasgow last year, the Orange Order marched 183 times, while related organisations, such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, marched 40 times and the Black Institute, 24.
the chief constable of Strathclyde Police revealed that the bill for policing three Orange Order events in July came to almost £1 million, a sum the force can ill afford, as it is facing a £200m deficit.
What must it be costing us as taxpayers to police 183 of these sectarian shindigs?
The "marches" should all be banned unless they pick up the tab for the cost of policing them.
Please excuse my ignorance but why does it cost so much to police these marches? Why do these marches need policing in the first place? Why do they still keep marching about things long ago? My wife is from Northern Ireland and I have seen these marches. I am very puzzled as to why there isn't just one country called UNOTE (United Nations of the Earth). Do we really need hundreds of countries and all these wars? It seems sensible to live and help live instead of all these wasteful conflicts that have raged across the planet over the centuries. Why not have a global election next year for the creation of one country called UNOTE and scrap all passports and visas and all that wasteful beaureaucracy? All humans could be equal citizens of this country and it could be run according to the 1948 declaration of Human Rights. How would we achieve this? Is it just me or is there anyone else on this planet who wants UNOTE?

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#13 Post by getreal » October 20th, 2009, 4:42 pm

From the marches I have seen, compassionist, they would appear to be expensive because of the manpower required (they seem to have 1 policeman to 2 orangemen).
They require policing as they are, in the main, alcohol fuelled numpties with anger management issues.

I just can't begin to understand why they feel the need to celebrate this event from so long ago.

Why can't they do something dignified if they feel they must mark the occasion?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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grammar king
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#14 Post by grammar king » October 20th, 2009, 6:33 pm

Well not just because they're drunk numpties but because they insist on going past Catholic pubs, churches etc.

Compassionist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#15 Post by Compassionist » October 20th, 2009, 7:25 pm

:)

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#16 Post by getreal » October 20th, 2009, 8:02 pm

I was week-ending at a wee convent in Wishaw, many years ago and the nuns told me the Orange Order had marched past them the week before and had purposfully broken many of their windows. They said this happened every year.

I'm still unsure why these men (it's mostly-but not exclusivly-men who march) felt that half a dozen, aged nuns were such a threat to them.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

Compassionist
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#17 Post by Compassionist » October 20th, 2009, 9:40 pm

:)

Nick
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#18 Post by Nick » October 20th, 2009, 9:52 pm

Compassionist wrote: I am very puzzled as to why there isn't just one country called UNOTE (United Nations of the Earth).
Because that would include the French...... :exit:

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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#19 Post by Compassionist » October 21st, 2009, 11:32 am

:)

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getreal
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Re: Scottish Independance & Sectarianism

#20 Post by getreal » October 21st, 2009, 2:03 pm

We would have to keep the English and French very far away from each other, then.

I know that some nuns/monks/priests can be cruel and sadistic. All my friends were taught at a convent school and the nuns there didn't seem to be particularly fond of children.

My experiences with nuns has been quite the opposite, though. I have found them intellegent, thoughtful and caring, but I'm well aware this was just my experience.

There was another convent nearby where people often took their children (only girls) with learning disabilities to be cared for (from about the 50s till the 80s). While the children were fed and clean and kept busy with sewing religious garments, they had no life. Luckily in the late 80s early 90s, there was a change in legislation which meant anyone caring for groups of people had to be properly registered. The convent could not meet any of the registration requirements and had no real will to do so.


The people left at the convent were provided with homes in a small housing estate being built nearby. They were provided with 24 hour care.
It was a much more full life than they had at the convent.
Not sure what this proves, though.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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