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Red or white?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Red, white or none?

Red
5
31%
White
2
13%
None
9
56%
 
Total votes: 16

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Author
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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Red or white?

#1 Post by Alan H » November 5th, 2008, 11:58 am

Not wine, but poppies. Which colour will you be wearing this week and why?
********************************************************************************
The Poppy Appeal - supporting The Royal British Legion
http://www.poppy.org.uk/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Poppy Appeal 2008

Poppy Man has launched the 2008 Poppy Appeal among friends in Basra. This year's theme "Serving those who Serve" emphasises the need to help men and women who are serving today, as well as ex-Services and dependants.

The British public holds great affection and respect for its Armed Forces. The Poppy Appeal is your opportunity to show your support, so please give generously and wear your poppy with pride.


Remembrance

As custodians of Remembrance, The Royal British Legion through the Poppy Appeal, provide ways for commemorating those who are no longer with us.

Each November, Fields of Remembrance are set up in London and Cardiff with Remembrance Crosses available for personal dedications. In 2008, a special Flanders' Field of Poppies is being created to commemorate the end of the First World War.

Other special anniversaries have been commemorated such as the 25th Anniversary of the Falklands (visit the Falklands Few website), or a permanent poppy dedication can be placed at the National Memorial Arboretum via the My Remembrance Day website.

For more information about the Two-Minute Silence, Remembrance Sunday and the Remembrance Festival is available on the Legion's website.

[Retrieved: Wed Nov 05 2008 11:52:59 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

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The Royal British Legion - About the Legion - Remembrance
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/content ... 8928.shtml
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your Service of Remembrance

A new Order of Service for Remembrance Sunday was produced, after many discussions between Churches Together in Britain and Ireland and The Royal British Legion. Following tragedies such as Dunblane and 9/11, the Churches were approached by many non ex-Service organisations for advice about appropriate Remembrance Services. The Legion was then approached for its views about developing a new Remembrance Service which could be used in non-military as well as military environments, by people of all faiths and none. The new Service is simpler, more straightforward and more inclusive, but we have ensured that all the essential traditional elements remain. The Service also includes many options so communities can decide for themselves the sort of Service they wish to arrange.

The new Order of Service for Remembrance Sunday is available from CTBI Publications, phone 01733 325 002 or via http://www.ctbi.org.uk

[Retrieved: Wed Nov 05 2008 11:56:05 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

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********************************************************************************
WHITE POPPIES FOR PEACE
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The White Poppy symbolises the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers. Our work, primarily educational, draws attention to many of our social values and habits which make continuing violence a likely outcome.
From economic reliance on arms sales (Britain is the world's second largest arms exporter) to maintaining manifestly useless nuclear weapons Britain contributes significantly to international instability. The outcome of the recent military adventures highlights their ineffectiveness in today's complex world.
Now 89 years after the end of the ‘war to end all wars’ we still have a long way to go to put an end to a social institution, which in the last decade alone killed over 10 million children.

WHITE POPPIES ARE FOR PEACE
The idea of decoupling Armistice Day , the red poppy and later Remembrance Day from their military culture dates back to 1926, just a few years after the British Legion was persuaded to try using the red poppy as a fundraising tool in Britain.

A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies instead of ‘Haig Fund’ and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers.

The details of any discussion with the British Legion are unknown but as the centre of the red poppy displayed the ‘Haig Fund’ imprint until 1994 it was clearly not successful. A few years later the idea was again discussed by the Co-operative Women's Guild who in 1933 produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion.

[Retrieved: Wed Nov 05 2008 11:49:23 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

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Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Fia
Posts: 5480
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Re: Red or white?

#2 Post by Fia » November 5th, 2008, 3:30 pm

Both, because I always get asked what the white one is. Just wearing a white one doesn't seem to have the same effect. Means I can do a little gentle consciousness raising whilst still showing respect.

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Alan C.
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Re: Red or white?

#3 Post by Alan C. » November 5th, 2008, 4:46 pm

I like the traditional red poppy, but I will have both if I see them both on sale, I like the message being sent out by the white poppy wearers.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Red or white?

#4 Post by Alan H » November 5th, 2008, 4:51 pm

Alan C. wrote:I will have both if I see them both on sale
Perhaps unlikely, but you can get the white ones from the Peace Pledge Union (although it might be a little late for this year).
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan C.
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Re: Red or white?

#5 Post by Alan C. » November 5th, 2008, 5:05 pm

Alan H
Perhaps unlikely,
There is an organization in Lerwick called "Shetland for peace" (there was a mass rally with 1,000 marchers, prior to the invasion of Iraq) I will be surprised if they don't have folk out selling white poppies when we go to town on Saturday. :smile:
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Ninny
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Re: Red or white?

#6 Post by Ninny » November 6th, 2008, 9:49 am

Display of poppies in our local co-op, including some stuck on to large wooden crosses. There is always a religious connotation to poppies/remembrance which sticks in my throat.

Maria Mac
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Re: Red or white?

#7 Post by Maria Mac » November 6th, 2008, 1:09 pm

Ninny wrote:There is always a religious connotation to poppies/remembrance which sticks in my throat.
Which is why Ian Roberts is organising a non-religious remembrance at the Conway Hall on Sunday. I hope he gets some support from people who want to do the remembrance thing. I don't usually bother with poppies myself.

Nick
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Re: Red or white?

#8 Post by Nick » November 6th, 2008, 4:46 pm

I will be wearing a red poppy, in memory of my grandfathers, both of whom served in WW1, and in civil defence in WW2 , and luckily survived (or I wouldn't be here). I never knew my paternal grandfather, but my maternal grandfather was in the Royal Artillery. I remember speaking to him on my 21st birthday, when he asked me was I "having a nice time", which struck me as a curiously phrased question. He then said "On my 21st I was on the Somme, and next year, just for a change, I went to Passendale" (where he was wounded.) He hardly ever mentioned his war service, but it had a lasting effect on me. It doesn't make the conflict less awful or less pointless to wear a red poppy, but I would not wear a white poppy.

First of all, white is universally regarded as a symbol of cowardice. Even if this is not so in this case, and I know that sometimes it takes courage to be a coward, when it can be the right thing to do, but I don't think it helps to promote peace by using white. For me, the sight of ex-servicemen marching past the Cenotaph is enough to bring home the awfulness of war. The poppy petals falling from the roof of the Albert Hall..... Even though we may be assured its not the intention, I think a white poppy would be grossly insulting to the great majority of them.

Secondly, I disagree with their analysis of conflict and dislike their attitude towards those who have protected them, giving them the freedom to act as they do.
The White Poppy symbolises the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers.
This is just ridiculous. The Army in Northern Ireland, or in Bosnia to take 2 examples, were there to reduce killings, not increase them. No resistance to Hitler would have meant the virtual elimination of Jews from Europe. Winston Churchill himself, probably our greatest military leader, said jaw-jaw is better than war-war. But sometimes that just doesn't work, and that must be recognised.
Our work, primarily educational, draws attention to many of our social values and habits which make continuing violence a likely outcome.
This is just vacuous wishful thinking, likely to be devoid of serious scholarship. Educational, eh? Like so-called "Peace Studies". Alas, the world is not like that. It's no good saying "be good and play together nicely". The lack of value is revealed by the next sentence:
From economic reliance on arms sales (Britain is the world's second largest arms exporter) to maintaining manifestly useless nuclear weapons Britain contributes significantly to international instability.
Please show me where British manufactured arms are contributing to instability. I'm not making a defence of the UK weapons industry, but you need more justification than that. Furthermore, ghastly though mutual destruction is to even contemplate, it arguably kept the Cold War cold. Likewise, how peaceful would the world have been if Saddam had had a nuclear capability without being assured of his own destruction? I don't think a white poppy would have stopped him. If the Greenham Common women really wanted to get rid of nuclear warheads from British soil, perhaps they should have picketed the Russian embassy, as it was ultimately the perceived decrease in the threat from the USSR which led to the closure of the base, not their caravans, songs and wire-cutters. By comparison, how did the GDR treat wire-cutters? Oh yes, they shot them.
The outcome of the recent military adventures highlights their ineffectiveness in today's complex world.
So, your solution to Darfur, or the Congo, is what, precisely?
we still have a long way to go to put an end to a social institution, which in the last decade alone killed over 10 million children
The tragic deaths of these children has more to do with the cruel nature of man, rather than the arms industry. Should Saddam-like dictators be free to kill at will? (And don't worry, they'll do it without any help from us.) Why were demonstrators prepared to picket the South African Embassy in Trafalgar Square, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, but not picket the current Zimbabwean Embassy? I'm not defending apartheid, just pointing out what I consider to be inconsistencies.

I realise my comments are not conclusive, but then they are not intended to be. Nor do they offer a guide to a safer world, but again, that is not my intention. I just wish people would think a little harder and be thankful for those who have and those who do protect them still.

Hmmm. I got a bit grumpy, didn't I?

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Alan C.
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Re: Red or white?

#9 Post by Alan C. » November 6th, 2008, 6:45 pm

That's a very good post Nick.
Hmmm. I got a bit grumpy, didn't I?
We're all entitled to our "grumpy" moments, never worry about it. :wink:
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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jaywhat
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Re: Red or white?

#10 Post by jaywhat » November 7th, 2008, 11:04 am

I do not wear a poppy.
This does not mean that I do not respect those who died in past wars, but that is inside my head.
I do not wish to glorify war and I do not wish to be told what to do.
Clearly if you work on TV you are told to wear a poppy - clearly some would not otherwise. I do not like this.
Today I was in the pathology waiting room at our local hospital with about 40 others people. They were above average age and many were very old. There was one poppy on show.

They should be worn by people who wish to and so should the white ones, but those who do should not make assumptions about those of us who do not.

Nick
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Re: Red or white?

#11 Post by Nick » November 7th, 2008, 12:04 pm

I do not wear a poppy.
That's fine by me. That is part of what freedom means.
This does not mean that I do not respect those who died in past wars, but that is inside my head.
Again, fair enough. OTOH, sometimes things are better expressed jointly, whether it is baby namings, weddings, funerals, or, as in this case, commemorations and memorials.
I do not wish to glorify war
Everyone will interpret the poppy in their own way. I think it is sad you identify it with glorification. For me it's an unsubtle reminder of the appalling nature of war.
and I do not wish to be told what to do.
Why does that not surprise me :D
Clearly if you work on TV you are told to wear a poppy - clearly some would not otherwise. I do not like this.
I think most TV people a) want to be seen to be part of what is probably the biggest national event, b) feel obliged for the sake of their public image to do so. Some do not. The guy who reads Channel 4 News, for one. For very much the reasons you state.
Today I was in the pathology waiting room at our local hospital with about 40 others people. They were above average age and many were very old. There was one poppy on show.
I don't think you should read too much into that. I myself am not wearing a poppy yet for the simple reason that I don't want it to be devalued by the period becoming longer and longer, like christmas. A few days before is quite sufficient.
They should be worn by people who wish to and so should the white ones,
Absolutely
but those who do should not make assumptions about those of us who do not.
Sadly assumptions will always be made, and sometimes they are the wrong ones, but that's life.

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LilacHamster
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Re: Red or white?

#12 Post by LilacHamster » November 10th, 2008, 11:39 am

I did put in some money for a red one and it promptly fell off and I lost it! Did not see anyone selling white ones although I would wear one of them and have done some years.

Has anyone heard of the purple poppies by Animal Aid?
http://www.animalaidshop.org.uk/accessories.htm
The explanation for them is on the left of the page.

Again too disorganised this year and did not get one, but would in principle wear all three poppies.

Beki
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Re: Red or white?

#13 Post by Beki » November 18th, 2008, 1:27 pm

Excellent post Nick. I too am just overawed when I think of the sacrifices that my grand-parent's generation went through. I don't see the red poppy as any kind of glorification - more a thankyou and in remembrance of them.

I don't know if they will ever show it again, but there was a theatre production called The Big Picnic which was put on at the Govan Shipyards a while back about the First World War. It was just amazing and one of the most emotional things I have ever seen. I think you can actually watch the production here:

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1111621327

but it loses quite a bit for not being live.
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - M Ghandi

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Alan C.
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Re: Red or white?

#14 Post by Alan C. » November 18th, 2008, 4:43 pm

^ That was very, very good Beki, put in a couple of hours on a cold and dark afternoon.
Two or three years ago, we took my mother to a similar but much smaller production at the Garrison theatre in Lerwick, it was of course, about the Shetland men rather than Govan, but it was also very good.

PS if the white robed figure swinging around on the hoist was meant to be God, I'm pleased it was a woman. :smile:
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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xman
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Re: Red or white?

#15 Post by xman » November 19th, 2008, 5:15 am

I didn't wear one this year, only because I carry the boy a lit and didn't want his little fingers or whatever getting pricked by the pin, because you know it would, but I sported a white one for facebook and elsewhere, where I was once actually called a 'Monster' for doing so. Can you believe that?

I'm of a dual mindset on this. I do understand and appreciate the service and justification for our fallen soldiers, but also must promote the cause of peace, realizing that it's always the power hungry ruling class that benefit from the blood of innocence, so I think I'd want to wear both. Is that too contradictory?

X
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

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Beki
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Re: Red or white?

#16 Post by Beki » November 19th, 2008, 1:20 pm

AlanC:
PS if the white robed figure swinging around on the hoist was meant to be God, I'm pleased it was a woman.
I think that I thought that she was a representation of Death rather than God, but I can't really remember - I saw it a long long time ago when I was just a bairn! Might watch it again now that I know it is there though.

Glad you enjoyed it Alan. I just remember standing (there was standing areas as well as the 'posh' seats!) during the final scene with the tears absolutely streaming down my face and being utterly helpless to stop them. Such sacrifices made by so many people. How lucky I feel to live both here and now.
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - M Ghandi

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Alan C.
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Re: Red or white?

#17 Post by Alan C. » November 19th, 2008, 6:39 pm

Beki
Glad you enjoyed it Alan.
When Mary got home and I told her I'd watched it (the whole two hours) she went to look for a star in the East, saying "it's a bloody miracle" if something managed to keep your attention for two hours, normally I can't even sit through a feature film :redface:
But yes, it was very good, hard to believe it was performed in an engine shed, well done to everybody involved in the production.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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