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Making Offenses

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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xman
Posts: 355
Joined: January 8th, 2008, 8:28 am

Making Offenses

#1 Post by xman » January 13th, 2008, 10:50 am

I've discovered that there is no language which can be used, no vocal inflection employed or obsequious gesture which can be formed to prevent the faithful from taking offense at the notion that their cherished god isn't home. Instantly they accuse me of being confrontational and pissing on their sacred beliefs. Quickly they come to each others aid and call me all kinds of nasty names, accuse me of wickedness and hate, but spew vitriolic bile at me themselves the whole while.

Why do you you think this is?
How should I handle these situations?
Am I wrong? Is there some way to talk to the theist about Atheism without hurting their feelings?
Are you, as a result of your own experiences talking to the godly, quiet about your beliefs or do you remain outspoken?

X
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Critical Thinking - http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

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Alan C.
Posts: 10356
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: Making Offenses

#2 Post by Alan C. » January 13th, 2008, 12:13 pm

They are so insecure in their beliefs that the least bit of criticism scares them, their natural instinct is to gang up on the detractor, their thinking is "so many of us believe the same thing, it must be right"
xman
Quickly they come to each others aid and call me all kinds of nasty names, accuse me of wickedness and hate, but spew vitriolic bile at me themselves the whole while.
As for the hate and vitriol......well that's just them being good Christians.
Different sects of Christianity spew the same hatred at each other, let alone those of us who are outside the cult.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Oxfordrocks
Posts: 673
Joined: September 10th, 2007, 9:45 am

Re: Making Offenses

#3 Post by Oxfordrocks » January 13th, 2008, 12:46 pm

The response I've used in the past (although I try to avoid these situations-It's like banging your head against a brick wall :headbang: ) is to simply say "If your god is all powerful and all knowing, why would you be upset with what I say, either your faith is very weak or you realise that what you believe is total bullsh*t" It may seem a very simplistic view but hey, i'm a very simple guy! :wink:

It's very simple-- surely,the creator of the heavens and the Earth does not need you to stick up for him/her.

How to argue:-http://www.etymonline.com/columns/fallacy.htm

Quote from the above link-
The best way to argue with a Xtian is to shift the fight as quickly as possible to their ground -- the Bible. Once you're on the Bible, you can pick at your leisure from any one of the dozens of possibilities: Internal contradictions, the ridiculous cosmology (flat earth, etc.), the cruel pettiness of the O.T. god.
There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating staying in EU.

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of staying in the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens will be caused by leaving EU?
3. Should the supreme court ruling on British subjects be based in UK?

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whitecraw
Banned
Posts: 233
Joined: July 10th, 2007, 12:18 am

Re: Making Offenses

#4 Post by whitecraw » January 13th, 2008, 10:00 pm

I've discovered that there is no language which can be used, no vocal inflection employed or obsequious gesture which can be formed to prevent the faithful from taking offense at the notion that their cherished god isn't home. Instantly they accuse me of being confrontational and pissing on their sacred beliefs. Quickly they come to each others aid and call me all kinds of nasty names, accuse me of wickedness and hate, but spew vitriolic bile at me themselves the whole while.

Why do you think this is?
Well, as Jesus said: ‘A prophet hesna honour faur aseekin, binna in his ain kintra an his ain faimlie.’
How should I handle these situations?
Stop behaving like a bloody missionary. Missionaries have been complaining since time immemorial of precisely the kind of reception you’ve been receiving. Just accept and come to terms with the fact that the varying experiential situation of different people makes it normal and natural that they will proceed differently – and, in particular, differ from yourself – in opinion, evaluation, customs and practices, and respect their autonomy by conceding them the right to go their own variant ways in the world. God is dead, you know. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth.

Ian Abbott
Posts: 145
Joined: December 4th, 2007, 3:23 pm

Re: Making Offenses

#5 Post by Ian Abbott » January 15th, 2008, 6:27 pm

Are you, as a result of your own experiences talking to the godly, quiet about your beliefs or do you remain outspoken?
Sam Harris warns about the danger of staying quiet http://youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM& ... ed&search=
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters.

Felicia
Posts: 495
Joined: August 3rd, 2007, 9:16 am

Re: Making Offenses

#6 Post by Felicia » January 15th, 2008, 6:37 pm

I think it was Freud who said, don't knock away the prop which is someone's religion unless you can replace it with something better. Many people are religious because it gives them a feeling of belonging to a privileged group. As Bion pointed out, groups are psychotic, for various reasons, one of which is that they split everyone into Them and Us. There's comfort in this (part of the attraction of football, politics etc too) and people who are so damaged that they need this kind of prop to their thinking are not going to take kindly to anyone trying to argue the toss.

I tend to say, I wish I COULD believe, I just can't get past the what my logical mind says, as if this is my problem, not theirs (there's an element of truth in this, actually). I do this nicely, generally, and most people are either lulled into a possibly fruitful discussion, or just walk away with pitying glances.

I do, on the whole, think we should not let religious belief go unchallenged.

fullerwiser
Posts: 113
Joined: November 29th, 2007, 3:47 pm

Re: Making Offenses

#7 Post by fullerwiser » January 16th, 2008, 5:56 pm

Alan C. wrote:They are so insecure in their beliefs that the least bit of criticism scares them, their natural instinct is to gang up on the detractor, their thinking is "so many of us believe the same thing, it must be right"
I've actually heard it put that way a number of times.

"So me and the millions who believe (X) are all just stupid and crazy?"

Or as Carl Sagan had Palmer Joss say:

"I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer from some form of mass delusion."

There is a very natural herd instinct in humans, and the thought of a majority being wrong doesn't come intuitively to most of us (except those who, like myself, never fit well into the majority), despite the numerous examples of the lone voice in the wilderness who turned out to be right. To find truth, we have to turn against some of our natural inclinations to belong, and to have safety and reassurance. In our culture, atheism doesn't get you any of that, and it scares the hell out of people.

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xman
Posts: 355
Joined: January 8th, 2008, 8:28 am

Re: Making Offenses

#8 Post by xman » January 17th, 2008, 12:17 am

fullerwiser wrote:
Alan C. wrote:"I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer from some form of mass delusion."
I loved everything about that movie except that inflated statistic.

X
Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're wrong, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Critical Thinking - http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html

plonkee
Posts: 31
Joined: December 13th, 2007, 11:05 pm

Re: Making Offenses

#9 Post by plonkee » January 20th, 2008, 11:46 pm

Felicia wrote:I think it was Freud who said, don't knock away the prop which is someone's religion unless you can replace it with something better. Many people are religious because it gives them a feeling of belonging to a privileged group. As Bion pointed out, groups are psychotic, for various reasons, one of which is that they split everyone into Them and Us. There's comfort in this (part of the attraction of football, politics etc too) and people who are so damaged that they need this kind of prop to their thinking are not going to take kindly to anyone trying to argue the toss.

I tend to say, I wish I COULD believe, I just can't get past the what my logical mind says, as if this is my problem, not theirs (there's an element of truth in this, actually). I do this nicely, generally, and most people are either lulled into a possibly fruitful discussion, or just walk away with pitying glances.

I do, on the whole, think we should not let religious belief go unchallenged.
I do this too. I do actually think that it must be nice to believe, kind of easier. But fortunately I can't make myself believe in things by realising that they are nice.

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