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Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

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Should parents have the right to refuse vaccination for their children?

No way!
15
28%
Yes indeed!
19
36%
Depends
18
34%
Other
1
2%
 
Total votes: 53

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Author
Dan
Posts: 298
Joined: November 26th, 2007, 5:05 pm

Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#281 Post by Dan » March 23rd, 2009, 9:19 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Anna of Arnica wrote:...p.s.
Meant to include this

"...explosive investigation by CBS News has found that since 1988,
the vaccine court has awarded money judgments, often in the millions of dollars,
to thirteen hundred and twenty two families whose children suffered brain
damage from vaccines.

In perhaps hundreds of these cases, the children have all the
classic symptoms of regressive autism; following vaccination a
perfectly healthy child experiences high fever, seizures, and other
illnesses, then gradually, over about three months, loses language,
the ability to make eye contact, becomes "over-focused" and engages in
stereotypical head banging and screaming and then suffers
developmental delays characteristic of autism. Many of these children
had received the autism diagnosis.
Yet the radioactive word "autism"
appears nowhere in the decision.
http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news. ... es&id=3305#\
newspost
The truth looks somewhat different, regrettably.

The rest of the article being cited is full of lies and distortions:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/ ... d_gene.php
and
http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/148/

This is the CBS story you've cherrypicked from the swamp:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06/27 ... 4847.shtml

Here are the stats they cite:
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation ... report.htm

Since 1988 there have been 12925 petitions filed. (numbers will have increased since the CBS report)
Of those, 7361 headed "nonautism" and 5564 headed "autism" (most since 2001).

Now, there were 7020 adjudications. OF the non-autism column, 2285 were found to be compensatable, 4331 not. Of the autism column, none were found to be compensatable, and 404 were dismissed (i..e all of those adjudicated).

The 1322 number comes from an email apparently sent to CBS, which can be found here:
http://actionforautism.co.uk/2009/03/01 ... ine-court/
Email from HHS to CBS
Here are the numbers of compensable cases for encephalitis / encephalopathy and seizures in our database from October 1, 1988 to March 4, 2008.
Encephalitis/Encephalopathy 611
Seizure Disorders 711
Total 1,322
There’s not much difference in the medical history and outcomes for children that were compensated for “encephalopathy” versus “seizures.”
Those compensated for encephalopathy often had seizures as part of their clinical picture, and vice versa.
the argument is supposed to be that these, or some of these, are "really" autism cases. But there is no evidence for that whatsoever.

Dan

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Alan H
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#282 Post by Alan H » March 23rd, 2009, 10:50 pm

Congrats to JQH for making the effort to complain about that appalling article.
********************************************************************************
A Complaint to the PCC « Letting Off Steam
http://jaycueaitch.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... o-the-pcc/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Complaint to the PCC
By jaycueaitch

[BPSDB]I have finally got around to submitting a complaint to the Press Complaints Commission regarding the Daily Mail’s appalling scare story about the HPV vaccine. Text follows.

I wish to complain about the article now found online at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... ccine.html which is headlined “Concerns over safety of cervical cancer vaccine after 1,300 girls experience side effects” which is misleading on the issue of side effects of the HPV vaccine. The article headlines the fact that 1300 had reported adverse reactions but buries the fact that 700,000 had received the vaccine within the text of the article. The article is an example of “confirmation bias” in that it assumes because a tiny minority of those vaccinated felt ill, that the vaccine was the cause. There is in fact no evidence linking the vaccine with the reported ill-effects and the assumption that there is a link is pure conjecture. Furthermore, the vast majority of the 1300 reported only minor effects but the article concentrates on those who report more serious symptoms, giving the entirely false impression that the vaccine causes serious side effects. The article is thus in breach of Clause 1 ( i) of the PCC Code of Practice which states that:-

“The Press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information…”

The article also states that some have dubbed the vaccine the ‘promiscuity jab’ because it protects against a sexually transmitted disease. However, there is no evidence to suggest that those who have received the vaccine indulge in riskier behaviour than those who have not. The link with ‘promiscuity’ is thus pure conjecture but is not presented as such. Because of this and the unsupported conjecture linked to above, the article thus breaches Clause 1 (iii) which states that:-

“The Press, whilst free to be partisan, must distinguish clearly between comment, conjecture and fact”

[Retrieved: Mon Mar 23 2009 22:47:36 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Anna of Arnica
Posts: 76
Joined: August 12th, 2008, 8:46 pm

Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#283 Post by Anna of Arnica » March 23rd, 2009, 11:39 pm

Thank you Dan for unpicking my poor post.. good work.
I will not be repeating this story until I see more medical record evidence which implies that autism was in fact pre-diagnosed in a proportion of award cases but not mentioned in court. It cannot be denied however that the word 'autism' is indeed a hot potato - it sends many of us in a flap.

Of course The One Click Group have their own 'interests' in this area and have presented the data thus...

Interesting though that in Japan, when the MMR was replaced by single vaccines, the Autism rate increased.
(This is sometimes used to illustrate that the MMR could not be associated with Autism.) Is this significant?
I wonder if the rise in cases may be due to the practise that the single measles and rubella vaccines were administered often on the same day?
Drs providing single jabs in the UK would leave 6 weeks at least.

Anyway it has lead me to look a little at Japan just for our interest rather than for the debate into compulsory vaccines - hope this is OK

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 59829.html
gives a chequered history of the measles vaccine in Japan explaining why uptake may have been so low leading to deaths at the beginning of this century.

To bring their practise up to date...
Japan still has measles epidemics ..In 2007, a measles epidemic occurred with an estimated 18,000 cases nationally... with a 97.9% measles coverage.... n.b. In that measles outbreak no encephalitis deaths were reported.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5738a5.htm

Interested how The Japanese Times explained the outbreaks in older age group.
"Vaccinations have reduced major outbreaks of measles among children. However, some people, even though they were vaccinated, lose their immunity over a period of 10 to 15 years if they do not boost their immunity by coming into contact with the virus. As Japan had not seen a major outbreak of measles for five years, people currently in high school and university are now more susceptible to the disease, the official said."
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ ... 608f1.html

Others may explain the outbreaks in the older age group due to only one vaccine administered when most of the developed world gives two, which is supposed to increase efficacy of the vaccine.

Anna

Anna of Arnica
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#284 Post by Anna of Arnica » March 24th, 2009, 12:23 am

Dear Alan,
With the death of Jade Goody I'm sure the uptake of this vaccine will be huge and of course all among 'informed' young ladies... I'm not sure that the HPV vaccine will ever be compulsory but I understand that this thread seems to be about vaccines in general.

I think it is too early to promote this vaccine as safe and effective - it is relatively new and if you know your history ... vaccines, and other drugs, are often associated with problems at the beginning. Data over the next decade will be crucial. Safety trials and one Daily Mail article isn't enough to conclude anything.

The current data on Cervarix shows that it gives protection for at least five years. There is no evidence yet as to how long the protection will last beyond that, so it’s possible that booster injections may be needed.
(THATS A LOT OF BOOSTERS!)
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org ... al-cancer/

Cancer UK seem to like this vaccine and of course official sites promote the vaccine and its safety but here is an article from Canada who have used the vaccine for a little longer than the UK.

Deaths Associated with HPV Vaccine Start Rolling In, Over 3500 Adverse Affects Reported
By John-Henry Westen
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/sep/07092004.html

TORONTO, September 20, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - As Canada, in large part due to aggressive behind the scenes lobbying, rolls out the not-comprehensively-tested Merck HPV vaccine for girls as young as nine, a look at developments on the vaccine south of the border should cause Canadians serious concern. In the United States a similar lobby campaign by the same company launched the mass HPV vaccination of girls beginning in June last year.

In just little over a year, the HPV vaccine has been associated with at least five deaths, not to mention thousands of reports of adverse effects, hundreds deemed serious, and many that required hospitalization.

Judicial Watch, a U.S. government watchdog, became concerned while noting large donations to key politicians originating from Merck. A freedom of information request from the group in May of this year discovered that during the period from June 8, 2006 - when the vaccines received approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) - to May 2007 there were 1,637 reports of adverse reactions to the HPV vaccine reported to the FDA.

Three deaths were related to the vaccine, including one of a 12-year-old. One physician's assistant reported that a female patient "died of a blood clot three hours after getting the Gardasil vaccine." Two other reports, on girls 12 and 19, reported deaths relating to heart problems and/or blood clotting.

As of May 11, 2007, the 1,637 adverse vaccination reactions reported to the FDA via the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) included 371 serious reactions. Of the 42 women who received the vaccine while pregnant, 18 experienced side effects ranging from spontaneous abortion to fetal abnormities.

Side effects published by Merck & Co. warn the public about potential pain, fever, nausea, dizziness and itching after receiving the vaccine. Indeed, 77% of the adverse reactions reported are typical side effects to vaccinations. But other more serious side effects reported include paralysis, Bells Palsy, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, and seizures.

Judicial Watch informed LifeSiteNews.com that a subsequent request for information on adverse reactions to the HPV vaccine, covering the period from May 2007 to September 2007, found that an additional 1800 adverse reactions have been reported, including more deaths. Exactly how many more deaths occurred will be released in the coming days, Judicial Watch's Dee Grothe informed LifeSiteNews.com.

The LifeSiteNews.com report on the moneyed lobbying efforts of Merck in the U.S. was reported in February. (see http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/feb/07020204.html )

However the Canadian lobby effort by Merck's Canadian affiliate Merck Frosst Canada has been underway using powerful lobbyists with close connections to the politicians who have signed off on massive government funded vaccination programs.

The Toronto Star recently reported that Merck Frosst Canada Ltd hired public relations giant Hill & Knowlton to push the immunization strategies using some well-connected lobbyists: Ken Boessenkool, a former senior policy adviser to Prime Minister Stephen Harper; Bob Lopinski, formerly with Premier Dalton McGuinty's office; and Jason Grier, former chief of staff to Health Minister George Smitherman.

Harper's Conservative Government approved Merck's HPV vaccine Gardasil in July and later announced a $300 million program to give the vaccine to girls from ages 9-13. That of course is only the beginning of what Merck likely hopes will be a much larger vaccination of all potentially sexually active women in Canada who are not already HPV infected. In August, McGuinty's Ontario Liberals, on the advice of his Health Minister George Smitherman, announced that all Grade 8 girls will have free access to Gardasil.

One of the major complaints by physicians is that the HPV vaccination program has been implemented before adequate testing has been completed. Long-term effects of the vaccine remain unknown. Many are asking why the seemingly reckless rush?

At least one answer to that question comes from the fact that Merck currently is the sole provider of an HPV vaccine with its Gardasil product. A competing HPV vaccine, Glaxo Smith Kline's Cervarix, is set to hit the market in January 2008. As more children are vaccinated with Gardasil, fewer will be able to later receive the necessary repeat boosters of a competing, incompatible vaccine. Merck is in a race to capture as much of the market as it can, consuming many millions of taxpayer dollars.

U.S. sales of Gardasil are expected to reach $1 billion in the first year of its availability.

The reports from the FDA Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System detailing the three previous deaths are available here:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007_do ... VAERSDeath...

The reports detailing all 1637 adverse effects are here:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007_do ... VAERSRepor...

A good overview can be found here
http://www.politicsandcurrentaffairs.co ... efits.html

I find it worrying that the vaccine is being administered to much younger girls than were used in the safety trials and that it is causing abnormalities to foetus' - In the UK we have a very high teenage pregnancy rate and many teenagers could be unknowingly pregnant whilst having this shot.

`Perhaps the £250,000 to save a life (one quoted cost is £100m a year ) may be better spent on publicising prevention - use a condom!

Anna

MedMae
Posts: 167
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 9:46 am

Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#285 Post by MedMae » March 24th, 2009, 8:40 am

Genetic basis of autism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7792363

Genetic basis of autism.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Gene ... 8458.shtml

Genetic basis of autism.
http://sfari.org/grants/name/genetic-basis-of-autism

Genetic basis of autism.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_71632743

Try using google, you might learn something. (Especially google scholar.)

Heres another one.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... bbcf382b82

It is not necessary to prove that they where previously diagnosed with autism, simply because autism is a developmental disorder. Autisitic brains develop differently than non-autistic brains, this starts in the womb before the baby is born.

As to increasing autism rates:
Autism rates are increasing and will coninue to increase because the number of disorders falling into the category of autism spectrum disorders (Bear in mind it is a collection of many disorders with related symptoms.) is increasing constantly, add that to better diagnostic tools and you get increasing numbers of diagnoses of autism. In order to be able to blame any of this increase on vaccines, you would first have to prove that some of the increase does not stem from the sources I just mentioned, they clearly have not doen this therefore you are left with 2 unconected pieces of data which means nothing.
`Perhaps the £250,000 to save a life (one quoted cost is £100m a year ) may be better spent on publicising prevention - use a condom!
Tell that to the Pope.

I may have more to say later but I have run out of time now.
Complexity is just simplicity multiplied to a point which exceeds a particular level of comprehension. - Theowarner

Maria Mac
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#286 Post by Maria Mac » March 24th, 2009, 12:35 pm

Anna of Arnica wrote: It is rare that I feel such animosity but this forum does tend to make the emotions rise, especially when swearing and name calling occasionally occurs (with sarcasm & negative personalization).
It is, of course, the engagement with people of opposing views that makes emotions rise, wherever that engagement takes place. The people on this forum aren't any different from people anywhere else though the standard of behaviour on this forum, when clashes occur, is higher than most others.
Conversely, I have known many vaccinated children suffering from conditions which their unvaccinated peers suffer far far less. And I have worked with children for 12 years.
You've mentioned this before. Unless you have kept full statistics that you can share with us, it really doesn't bring anything to the table. An anti-vaccine parent who works with children has the impression that vaccinated children are less healthy than unvaccinated ones. Now there's a surprise. :rolleyes:
Most parents have their children's health at the heart, and of course so do doctors and most scientists... I have never " habitually portrayed them as being callous, dishonest, uncaring and motivated by pure greed" but we disagree at the route, the means, to health.
Obviously. However, it is a major part of anti-vac strategy to portray doctors and scientists and callous and greedy. Wherever you find anti-vaxers on the web, this is exactly what they are doing. And, as I said, earlier, this is why I don't give them the time of day. If they resort to such a fallacious argument as a main plank in their strategy, I really can't bothered to hear what else they have to say. I am interested in hard evidence not anecdotes and fallacies.
In January 1959 (pre-measles vaccine) the British Medical Journal reported measles as ‘"the commonest infection in the world” and said that “complications were extremely rare thanks to improved living conditions". Fifty years later, despite continued improvement in living standards, parents are now fearful of measles and out to lynch the unvaccinators.
People are fearful of measles because, in spite of improved living conditions, some children can - and are - still be left disabled or dead by this preventable disease that should have been eliminated in the UK in the 21st century and it's thanks to the anti-vaccine movement that we're getting measles epidemics instead.

Maria Mac
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#287 Post by Maria Mac » March 24th, 2009, 12:41 pm

MedMae wrote:
Try using google, you might learn something. (Especially google scholar.)
I'm afraid the University of Google has a lot to answer for considering how much misinformation anti-vaxers are putting out on the web. Thanks for the tip about google scholar, however. I didn't know about it.

MedMae
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#288 Post by MedMae » March 24th, 2009, 12:49 pm

Maria wrote:
MedMae wrote:
Try using google, you might learn something. (Especially google scholar.)
I'm afraid the University of Google has a lot to answer for considering how much misinformation anti-vaxers are putting out on the web. Thanks for the tip about google scholar, however. I didn't know about it.
Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase that:

Try using google scholar, you might learn something. :D
Complexity is just simplicity multiplied to a point which exceeds a particular level of comprehension. - Theowarner

Maria Mac
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#289 Post by Maria Mac » April 28th, 2009, 12:32 pm

Just popping in to update on my earlier post about the tragic death from whooping cough of Dana McCaffery. I had edited that post a remark blaming anti-vaxers from her death because, in truth, I didn't know enough about the situation in Australia to be sure it wasn't simply a failing of the local healthy of authority that was responsible for the re-emergence of whooping cough over there. But I recently came across this very informative website http://scepticsbook.com/ which carries a video of a news story on Dana, including interviews with her parents (who are pro-vaccine and would have had Dana vaccinated as soon as she was old enough for the jab) and a paediatrician as well as with some diabolical representative of the Australian anti-vax movement called Meryl Dorey.

As a result I can confidently 're-edit' my position and call Dana an innocent victim of the anti-vax movement.

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Alan C.
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#290 Post by Alan C. » May 4th, 2009, 4:48 pm

Oh dear...........
LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - Jenny McCarthy is poised to become the next star in Oprah Winfrey's media empire.
Jenny McCarthy inks deal with Winfrey's Harpo
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan C.
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#291 Post by Alan C. » May 20th, 2009, 9:01 pm

Last week, the NPHS said its research had shown the MMR uptake in one school in the Carmarthenshire area was as low as 14.8%.
Measles outbreak 'worst in years'
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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getreal
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#292 Post by getreal » May 20th, 2009, 10:11 pm

Perhaps it's time to push vaccination in a more aggressive manner.
I cannot put my dogs into boarding kennels unless they are vaccinated against certain diseases. No ecuses. No exceptions. Homoeopathic "vaccines" are not acceptable.

People are more important than dogs, so why do we not make this a condition of entry to nursery/childminder/school?

As a society, do we really think that protecting dogs from infectious disease is more important than protecting children?

I wish I had looked at this thread sooner, because I noticed Anna was inferring that measles was a fairly minor disease.
I know this does not prove anything, but I had measles at 3 years old, was extremely ill and developed Bell's Palsy.

I was very lucky in that I recovered fully.

*sorry. Bit of a rant.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan C.
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#293 Post by Alan C. » May 20th, 2009, 10:55 pm

I had measles at aged around eight, caught from my older sister.
Fortunately I was over it in around two weeks, with no lasting effects.
Strange thing is...........I had the measles jab after I had the measles :shrug:
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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getreal
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#294 Post by getreal » May 21st, 2009, 2:53 pm

Alan C. wrote:I had measles at aged around eight, caught from my older sister.
Fortunately I was over it in around two weeks, with no lasting effects.
Strange thing is...........I had the measles jab after I had the measles :shrug:
Belt & braces?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Val
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#295 Post by Val » May 21st, 2009, 7:21 pm

Alan C. wrote:I had measles at aged around eight, caught from my older sister.
Fortunately I was over it in around two weeks, with no lasting effects.
Strange thing is...........I had the measles jab after I had the measles :shrug:
Alan, Maybe your measles would have been worse if you had not had the jab. I had measles at nine months and it affected my eyesight for life.

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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#296 Post by jdc » May 21st, 2009, 9:38 pm

Alan C. wrote:I had measles at aged around eight, caught from my older sister.
Fortunately I was over it in around two weeks, with no lasting effects.
Strange thing is...........I had the measles jab after I had the measles :shrug:
Some vaccines can help if given after the disease has been contracted but I can't remember which ones. Don't think measles was listed as being one, but perhaps it wasn't an exhaustive list that I saw. (It was in one of Paul Offit's books.)
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#297 Post by getreal » May 21st, 2009, 11:17 pm

I'm pretty sure when they gave vaccinations when I was at school, basically everyone complied. You were not asked if you had previously contracted any of the diseases.

I'm pretty sure. That was Scotland in the 60s.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#298 Post by Alan H » December 30th, 2012, 7:17 pm

Here's Athena's blog post wot she published today inspired by one of the contributors to this thread: Daft complaint to the BBC by anti-vax activists
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#299 Post by Dave B » December 30th, 2012, 8:14 pm

I ticked "Depends" because I find myself ambivalent in this area. I waited until I knew all the facts about another "permission" case (the lad with cancer whose mother did not want him to have radiation therapy) until I knew more about it. When it turned out that she wanted him to have alternative therapy instead then I came down firmly on the side of authority.

I suppose, basically, I want to lean towards anything that helps reduce the chances of disease - however I feel uncomfortable with overbearing authority.

Good blog though, Athena. I did particularly like the response from Andy the Australian! I wonder how those graphs look against basic demographics - the increasing population for example?
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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getreal
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#300 Post by getreal » January 5th, 2013, 1:05 am

It really depresses me that such a simple, life saving proceedure as vaccination, is so vehemently and vociferously opposed by ill informed wealthy people in the developed world.
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Alan H
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Re: Should parents have the right to refuse vaccinations...

#301 Post by Alan H » January 5th, 2013, 1:35 am

It needs to be pointed out that Athena's blog post was re-Tweeted by Dara O'Briain on Wednesday and the resulting hits on her website went through the roof!

Then it got a mention in the Guardian yesterday...

And on a similar subject, perhaps you might like to post a review on amazon of a new book, Melanie's Marvellous Measles. My review is currently rated the highest.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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