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Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

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getreal
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Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#1 Post by getreal » January 20th, 2015, 1:08 pm

Found this on my timeline this morning and it makes me so angry. How can this be allowed to happen? The type of leukaemia she had has a 90% survival rate when treated with real medicine by real doctors.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1781714/ontar ... cine-dies/


Bit more info

http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/makay ... -1.2829885
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#2 Post by Dave B » January 20th, 2015, 1:31 pm

Ignoring the Jesus mumbo-jumbo I would like to know more about the "side effects" and the actual cause of the "organ failure" and the "stroke".

I won't go into the argument of whether an 11 year old should be allowed a life-choice of this level but do we know anything of what she was suffering and what the medics could offer as a future quality of life?

I would suggest that the coroner's report might be critical here, assuming a full-on forensic inquiry is carried out.

I am certainly against unproven "traditional medicine" as a first line defence but this seems more complex than the articles can cover.
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getreal
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#3 Post by getreal » January 20th, 2015, 7:04 pm

I know that there is not much information- and that's only from news sources, so is, in itself, not necessarily reliable.

But. There are so many of these cases. Why are the purveyors of false hope treatments allowed to continue?
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#4 Post by Dave B » January 20th, 2015, 7:42 pm

getreal wrote:I know that there is not much information- and that's only from news sources, so is, in itself, not necessarily reliable.

But. There are so many of these cases. Why are the purveyors of false hope treatments allowed to continue?
I am taking it that this was a native family, that puts a different cultural slant on things than, say, if your next door neighbouring family (assuming they were of the same cultural heritage as yourself) did something similar.

I did not retain much from my sociology course but not reflecting one's own cultural values onto other societies did stick a bit.

However if a "traditional" person wishes to use "traditional" remedies for their own use that is up to them, they are entitled to do so (even if it meant grief for their family.) If they refuse "scientific" treatment that has a very high possibility of a cure, for a child or even another adult, in favour of "traditional" remedies and that individual dies for that reason alone then they should be charged with manslaughter. If manslaughter is not appropriate then a charge of some form of deliberate neglect must surely be so. Dunno.
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#5 Post by getreal » January 21st, 2015, 10:56 pm

No. This was nothing to do with "culture".

They attended some big quack doctor in (I think) Oregon. He runs a big slick operation offering "laser" treatments and allsorts of other nonsense. I'll try to find a link to the place.


ETA: this is the place she attended. I wonder how much they made out of this child's illness?

http://hippocratesinst.org/
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#6 Post by Dave B » January 22nd, 2015, 9:23 am

Perhaps it was my memory of the headline of the first article (my bold)
Ontario girl Makayla Sault, who refused chemo in favour of traditional medicine, dies
and
Makayla, a member of the New Credit First Nation near Caledonia, Ont.,
and
Makayla Sault, the 11-year-old Ontario First Nation girl who refused chemotherapy to pursue traditional indigenous medicine and other alternative treatments, has died.
that put the "cultural" idea in my mind.

Where did the laser treatment come from?
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#7 Post by getreal » January 22nd, 2015, 11:27 am

The clinic in Florida. It wasn't "traditional". I don't know if she had traditional treatment as well as the stuff from the Florida clinic. The clinic is not forst nation tradition. It's your usual pseudo science stuff. I believe they have been criticised before - especially as the head honcho uses the title "Dr"
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#8 Post by Dave B » January 22nd, 2015, 11:42 am

getreal wrote:The clinic in Florida. It wasn't "traditional". I don't know if she had traditional treatment as well as the stuff from the Florida clinic. The clinic is not forst nation tradition. It's your usual pseudo science stuff. I believe they have been criticised before - especially as the head honcho uses the title "Dr"
Another case of the media getting things (and us) confused. An even better reason for waiting until (hopefully) the true story is revealed.

Was there not a bit about the clinic boss being sued by employees, or former such? Perhaps the clinic head is a doctor of divinity, or something, from some US postal degree mill!
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Sel
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#9 Post by Sel » January 22nd, 2015, 4:09 pm

The media seems to be confusing two stories here. Basically, two native girls have refused treatment and turned to Traditional Healing! (read: woo) With the second girl, the courts ruled that the family had the right to return to their traditional methods of healing. In both cases, the families have used American quacks and their sorcery. That ties in well with Native spirituality. It is the girl in the first story who has died. We have heard little about the second case of late.

The ironic part is the fact that most Native culture had all but disappeared and this new adherence to lore has just recently raised its ugly head. It seems to be the Native equivalent to the anti-vaccers and natural healing nonsense.

The saddest part is that these children have been brainwashed into believing medicine is killing them and herbs and smudging ceremonies will heal them.

I once attended a conference on Native Culture where one of the guest speakers explained her spirituality. Yikes! After she began explaining the Spirit of the Rocks and the Feelings of the Trees, I left for a coffee to avoid becoming extremely rude.

During this conference it became obvious that there is a very real split in the Native communities between those who want to move forward and embrace the modern Canadian culture and those who want to return to, what they think, was their original culture. I say, return to the past if you like but leave the skidoos, $45000 trucks and your rifles behind.
"The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge." Bertrand Russell

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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#10 Post by Dave B » January 22nd, 2015, 4:30 pm

My head hurts!

Always take one step back after reading anything in any kind of media - chances are high that they have it wrong; accidentally/deliberately and/or by omission/commission.

Yes, as any kind of prime or first line therapy "traditional" ones should not be contemplated. As a second line, as a palliative, placebo or in some "parallel" way if it gives the patient any kind of relief then it is harmless.

The children's organisation said that one girl had the right to chose but can a young girl really make an informed decision? Should there be no chance of a cure and the prospect of months, or even years, of serious pain and near zero quality of life before death, perhaps, then the youngster's thoughts should certainly factor.
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thundril
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#11 Post by thundril » January 22nd, 2015, 4:35 pm

Which part of Ontario First Nation traditional culture includes Jesus?

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Sel
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#12 Post by Sel » January 22nd, 2015, 5:29 pm

...all of them...thanks to the RC priests who proselytized and converted the "heathens" to Christianity. Oh the CofE got into the game, too. Native children were plucked from their homes and sent to boarding schools run by the churches. They were forbidden to speak their Native language and punished for doing so. The abuses in those schools were endless.

http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=4


Because several generations of children were raised in cruel institutions, the family unit broke down. Many of us are of the opinion that this was a major cause of family dysfunction, alcoholism and general lack of direction of many of our Natives. Not all are lost, but the cost to society and to our Native peoples due to these abuses by our governments and churches is severe. Solving the many complex issues will take understanding, empathy, effort and $$$$$.

I have edited this to add the story of the second girl. This may serve to further confuse the issue. :puzzled:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/makay ... 85?cmp=rss
"The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge." Bertrand Russell

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getreal
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#13 Post by getreal » January 22nd, 2015, 9:15 pm

It seems odd to me that when faced with JW who will not agree to blood products being given to their seriously ill children, the courts seem to side with science and dismiss the parents religious views, ensuring the child receives appropriate treatment. Yet in the case of one of these children they did not.
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Re: Another child dies courtesy of magic medicine treatments

#14 Post by Sel » January 22nd, 2015, 11:41 pm

getreal wrote:It seems odd to me that when faced with JW who will not agree to blood products being given to their seriously ill children, the courts seem to side with science and dismiss the parents religious views, ensuring the child receives appropriate treatment. Yet in the case of one of these children they did not.


Getreal, that was the general reaction here in Canada, too. What was the judge thinking? Is avoiding a conflict with Native leaders more important than a child's life? So it would seem.
"The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge." Bertrand Russell

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