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Homeopathy

Any topic related to science can be discussed here.
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Trinoc
Posts: 239
Joined: October 20th, 2009, 12:04 am

Re: Homeopathy

#521 Post by Trinoc » March 8th, 2010, 8:08 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Alan C. wrote:After reading your wiki link Alan, it doesn't sound like much of a comedy to me :puzzled:
I notice it was first performed at the Hampstead Theatre. I know quite a few people who live around there and I've met the sort of person who would call a plot like that "comedy".

Needless to say you would never find any of the friends I referred to in a skeptical forum.
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

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Alan C.
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Re: Homeopathy

#522 Post by Alan C. » March 13th, 2010, 12:19 pm

Check the list for your MP.
An‘early day motion1 (EDM 908) has been tabled in parliament which opposes the conclusions of the science and technology committee report on the evidence for homeopathy. After two weeks it has been signed by an amazing 55 MPs
From here.

Tredinnick, David Con
Simpson, Alan Lab
Russell, Bob LibDem
Pound, Stephen Lab
Dismore, Andrew Lab
Simpson, David Democratic unionist
McDonnell, John Lab
Campbell, Gregory Democratic unionist
Cohen, Harry Lab
Corbyn, Jeremy Lab
Drew, David Lab
Gray, James Con
Hancock, Mike LibDem
Hermon, Lady Ulster unionist
Key, Robert Con
Hemming, John LibDem
Bone, Peter Con
Davies, Dai Independent
Mates, Michael Con
Dodds, Nigel Democratic unionist
Wyatt, Derek Lab
Sarwar, Mohammad Lab
Hamilton, Fabian Lab
Winterton, Nicholas Con
Davies, Philip Con
Leigh, Edward Con
Barlow, Celia Lab
Ellwood, Tobias Con
Leech, John Lib Dem
Main, Anne Lab
Robinson, Peter Democratic unionist
McCrea, Dr William Democratic unionist
Paisley, Ian Democratic unionist
Brady, Graham Con
Cook, Frank Lab
Hall, Patrick Lab
Binley, Brian Con
Pugh, John Lib dem
Davey, Edward Lib dem
Weir, Mike Scottish Nationalist
Sharma, Virendra Kumar Lab
Abbott, Diane Lab
Williams, Mark Lib dem
Horam, John Con
Widdecombe, Ann Con
Browne, Jeremy Lib dem
Spicer, Michael Con
Maclean, David Con
McCafferty, Chris Lab
Buck, Karen Lab
George, Andrew Lib Dem
Vis, Rudi Lab
Walter, Robert Lab
Whittingdale, John Con
Farron, Timoth
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Trinoc
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Re: Homeopathy

#523 Post by Trinoc » March 13th, 2010, 3:22 pm

Alan C. wrote:Dismore, Andrew Lab
Dimsore is my local moron. He's well known for jumping on every bandwagon just to get his name known. I wouldn't put it past him to sign EDMs both supporting and opposing the report.

Before they clamped down on expenses, he spent the largest amount by far of any MP -- about £20,000 -- on postage. He did this by writing personally to every constituent whose name appeared anywhere in connection with any issue. I got drawn into a long correspondence with him just because I had signed a local petition about something.

When I wanted him to do something concrete though -- in this case stopping the local fuzz college from playing helicopters by circling over my area all night -- all I got was useless waffle.

He is/was chairman of the human rights committee, yet he supports detaining people for long periods without trial. Given the area, needless to say he has nothing helpful to say about human rights in the Middle East.
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

Dan
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Re: Homeopathy

#524 Post by Dan » March 16th, 2010, 12:36 pm

Have the pro-homeopathy lot got a write-in campaign going to ask MPs to sign up to this EDM?

Dan

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getreal
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Re: Homeopathy

#525 Post by getreal » March 16th, 2010, 7:48 pm

My local MP does not support homeopathy on the NHS and I have recently recieved a reply from my MSP (I had written to ask what the scottish parliament intended to do in light of the committee findings). She has passed my question to Nicola Sturgeon and I await her reply with interest. last time I asked her her position on woo on the NHS she waffled on about "choices".
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

Marian
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Re: Homeopathy

#526 Post by Marian » March 19th, 2010, 12:07 pm

Alan C,

I looked and looked but I couldn't find my MP on the list. What shall I do?







:exit: Hee hee!
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grammar king
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Re: Homeopathy

#527 Post by grammar king » March 19th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Move to the UK.

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Alan H
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Re: Homeopathy

#528 Post by Alan H » March 19th, 2010, 2:40 pm

One MP, Tim Farron, has seen the light and withdrawn his support for the EDM. Maybe he couldn't answer Ben Goldacre's question?
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Maria Mac
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Re: Homeopathy

#529 Post by Maria Mac » March 19th, 2010, 4:50 pm

I'm going to this talk:
There is presently no accepted scientific theory of how the high-dilutions involved in homeopathy might carry any physical effect, let alone a therapeutic effect. Several lines of enquiry have been followed over the years with little success. There is currently a great need for a testable theory of high-dilutions, such a theory might be that of Quantum Coherence Domains (QCDs).

Giuliano Preparata (1942-2000), an Italian theoretical physicist at the university of Milan, hypothesised the presence of QCDs in room temperature condense matter. QCDs emerged out of Preparata’s extension of Quantum Electro-Dynamics to include interactions with external Electromagnetic (EM) fields. In the case of water these hypothesised QCDs would be small volumes of water each one acting as a single quantumly coherent entity.

These QCDs have interesting properties in terms of a potential explanation of the phenomena linked to high-dilutions. These QCDs are predicted to capture the EM fields present at the time of their creation. This process could, in principle, capture the specific EM signature of any given substance. The serial dilution/succussion process involved in homeopathy could then be seen as a way of propagating QCDs around a sample (through succussions or, equivalently, vortexing) and eventually removing all trace of the original substance (through dilutions).

QCDs are currently being investigated as a potential explanation of a number of anomalous behaviours reported in experiments investigating solvation effects. In the context of high-dilutions a number of experiments have already reported some effects, although not in a fully reproducible way.

I will present an overview of the theory of QCDs and how, when applied to homeopathy, it offers a framework through which many of the observed phenomena can be investigated and potentially explained.

philbo
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Re: Homeopathy

#530 Post by philbo » March 19th, 2010, 5:36 pm

Maria wrote:I'm going to this talk:
Make sure you take some homeopathic caffeine to help you stay awake.

...and try not to shout "bullshit" too loud

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Paolo
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Re: Homeopathy

#531 Post by Paolo » March 19th, 2010, 7:26 pm

Maria wrote:I'm going to this talk:
There is presently no accepted scientific theory of how the high-dilutions involved in homeopathy might carry any physical effect, let alone a therapeutic effect. Several lines of enquiry have been followed over the years with little success. There is currently a great need for a testable theory of high-dilutions, such a theory might be that of Quantum Coherence Domains (QCDs).

Giuliano Preparata (1942-2000), an Italian theoretical physicist at the university of Milan, hypothesised the presence of QCDs in room temperature condense matter. QCDs emerged out of Preparata’s extension of Quantum Electro-Dynamics to include interactions with external Electromagnetic (EM) fields. In the case of water these hypothesised QCDs would be small volumes of water each one acting as a single quantumly coherent entity.

These QCDs have interesting properties in terms of a potential explanation of the phenomena linked to high-dilutions. These QCDs are predicted to capture the EM fields present at the time of their creation. This process could, in principle, capture the specific EM signature of any given substance. The serial dilution/succussion process involved in homeopathy could then be seen as a way of propagating QCDs around a sample (through succussions or, equivalently, vortexing) and eventually removing all trace of the original substance (through dilutions).

QCDs are currently being investigated as a potential explanation of a number of anomalous behaviours reported in experiments investigating solvation effects. In the context of high-dilutions a number of experiments have already reported some effects, although not in a fully reproducible way.

I will present an overview of the theory of QCDs and how, when applied to homeopathy, it offers a framework through which many of the observed phenomena can be investigated and potentially explained.
I really hope you get to ask how a QCD manages to remain coherent when the water has been dropped on sugar and evaporated, so the quanta of water have ceased to exist due to the phase change. Should sugar miraculously have memory it would be interesting to see how it identifies which EM field to resonate with - the QCD from the water or the EM field from the Earth's magnetic field, light, nearby radio transmitters, etc.

I won't write this all off as hogwash without evidence to disprove it, but it sounds highly implausible.

Maria Mac
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Re: Homeopathy

#532 Post by Maria Mac » March 19th, 2010, 7:55 pm

Paolo wrote: I really hope you get to ask how a QCD manages to remain coherent when the water has been dropped on sugar and evaporated, so the quanta of water have ceased to exist due to the phase change.
That would be an excellent question. However, I'll probably be keeping my head down rather than blowing my cover asking intelligent questions. :)

Trinoc
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Joined: October 20th, 2009, 12:04 am

Re: Homeopathy

#533 Post by Trinoc » March 19th, 2010, 8:23 pm

There is presently no accepted scientific theory of how the high-dilutions involved in homeopathy might carry any physical effect, let alone a therapeutic effect.
I suppose it would be futile to suggest to them that a minor application of Occam's Razor would suggest the answer is simply: They don't.
Be skeptical of the things you believe are false, but be very skeptical of the things you believe are true.

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Lorikeet
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Re: Homeopathy

#534 Post by Lorikeet » March 20th, 2010, 6:41 pm

Here is a good list of the reasons why homeopathy works. It's even been translated into Spanish, apparently, because it's so accurate . . .
All humans are brothers. We came from the same supernova.

Marian
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Re: Homeopathy

#535 Post by Marian » March 20th, 2010, 8:01 pm

Homeopathy must work. See the cartoon:
DeadlyNightshadePiles.gif
DeadlyNightshadePiles.gif (14.68 KiB) Viewed 1660 times
Transformative fire...

jdc
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Re: Homeopathy

#536 Post by jdc » March 21st, 2010, 12:53 am

Lorikeet wrote:Here is a good list of the reasons why homeopathy works. It's even been translated into Spanish, apparently, because it's so accurate . . .
Oh, nicely done. Was particularly pleased to see the rebuttal of Milgrom's PPR entanglement nonsense make an appearance. I expect Shpalman would be pleased: Google search for shpalman +milgrom.
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Alan H
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Re: Homeopathy

#537 Post by Alan H » March 21st, 2010, 11:26 am

Lorikeet wrote:Here is a good list of the reasons why homeopathy works. It's even been translated into Spanish, apparently, because it's so accurate . . .
Brilliant!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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getreal
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Re: Homeopathy

#538 Post by getreal » March 21st, 2010, 1:40 pm

Lorikeet wrote:Here is a good list of the reasons why homeopathy works. It's even been translated into Spanish, apparently, because it's so accurate . . .
:pointlaugh:

so good!
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Val
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Re: Homeopathy

#539 Post by Val » March 23rd, 2010, 7:53 pm

May I refer people to my comment in the Simon Singh thread about the book Suckers, by Rose Shapiro.

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Lorikeet
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Re: Homeopathy

#540 Post by Lorikeet » April 5th, 2010, 10:56 pm

An excellent petition here to save London Homeopathy Hospital. :pointlaugh: :laughter:
All humans are brothers. We came from the same supernova.

Nick
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Re: Homeopathy

#541 Post by Nick » April 6th, 2010, 12:05 am

That's fabulous Lorikeet! :laughter: Do you think they'll present it? Maybe they'll just present a single signature.... or even just the first initial.... :laughter:

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