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Measuring wisdom

Any topic related to science can be discussed here.
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Nick
Posts: 11027
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Measuring wisdon

#41 Post by Nick » May 15th, 2010, 8:31 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Logikos wrote:
Nick wrote: For me, a Christian is anyone who believes that Jesus is Lord and Messiah and that he was raised from the dead (aka the gospel). In my opinion, everything else is up for the grabs, including the role of the biblical texts. Because I think that Jesus had a high view of Scripture (i.e. the Old Testament) and that his disciples were faithful to what Jesus taught them, I take the Bible seriously. That doesn't mean there is nothing in it that I disagree with, or that I think it is "infallible" or "inerrant", but I do think that the Bible as a whole speaks especially of God's nature and the way he acts through history. So I wrestle with it, try to understand it and glean as much wisdom from it as I can.
Thanks for your reply, Logikos. :)

It's always mildly disconcerting that when asked a question, Xians suddenly depart from English as she is spoke.

"Jesus is Lord"? :shrug: Does that actually mean anything? "Messiah" is a little more self evident, at least in meaning. But what evidence do you have? Perhaps more importantly, (because I doubt you are about to produce any reasonable evidence) why is it even reasonablr to think that such a thing is worth looking for? The whole proposition is ridiculous, surely?

As for the resurrection, why is the resurrection of Jesus (which, if you look at your bible was, in fact quite a common occurrence at the time) so much more likely than the reappearance of Elvis, Lord Lucan or Shergar? While we are at it, what about the Assumption. Just where did Jesus go? Where is he now?

My head hurts.

Logikos
Posts: 14
Joined: May 12th, 2010, 3:52 pm

Re: Measuring wisdon

#42 Post by Logikos » May 15th, 2010, 11:40 pm

Nick wrote:It's always mildly disconcerting that when asked a question, Xians suddenly depart from English as she is spoke.

"Jesus is Lord"? :shrug: Does that actually mean anything?
My apologies, Nick, I slipped into using Christianese. At the very least, the claim that Jesus is Lord is the claim that Jesus is YHWH (the God of Judeo-Christianity) incarnate and thus has authority over all. It also carries with it the reverse connotation that nothing or noone else has such authority (and in the context that "Jesus is Lord" was first proclaimed, it carries with it the very clear message that Caesar isn't Lord).
Nick wrote:"Messiah" is a little more self evident, at least in meaning. But what evidence do you have? Perhaps more importantly, (because I doubt you are about to produce any reasonable evidence) why is it even reasonabl[e] to think that such a thing is worth looking for? The whole proposition is ridiculous, surely?

As for the resurrection, why is the resurrection of Jesus (which, if you look at your bible was, in fact quite a common occurrence at the time) so much more likely than the reappearance of Elvis, Lord Lucan or Shergar?
All of these questions are related. The reason I believe that Jesus is Lord and Messiah is the Resurrection - Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of this event. And the reason I take the claim that the Resurrection actually happened seriously is because of the historical witness to that event.
Nick wrote:While we are at it, what about the Assumption. Just where did Jesus go? Where is he now? My head hurts.
I presume that you mean the Ascension. The Ascension is the transition between Jesus having a physical existence within time and space and having a non-physical existence "outside" of time and space. And that makes my head hurt too.

Nirvanam
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Joined: April 15th, 2009, 11:29 pm

Re: Measuring wisdon

#43 Post by Nirvanam » May 16th, 2010, 12:54 am

peneasy wrote:
Nirvanam wrote: Typically humans tend to think or traverse mental paths that they are used to or are familiar with. There are different types of Psychological Inertia...
Nirvanam,
forgive my belated reaction ....or the cricket jokes!
My psychological inertia certainly comes from a just completed course on Humanism:
http://humanisteducation.com/

Alan C wrote: "Wisdom develops with age, much like grey hair and a short temper"
Isn't that a kind of statistical exercise?! You meet with situations all along your life, you evaluate them (the more the better) and you finally conclude your judgement.
You know I am not really sure if wisdom can be equated with age. I mean there will be a positive correlation probably even strong positive correlation but causation...I am skeptical there. I think wisdom is what you gain from the experiences rather than how many experiences you had. I face this disconnect all the time in my work...unfortunately for me I am yet to start balding or getting gray hair and people expect someone in the higher ladders to be ripe and "aged" and I would often get 'that' look from clients...lol.

When I was in college my dad told me this thing which has had a very huge impact on my life and how I view people and things. My dad told me: it is not the number of years of experience you have in your work but it is what you learn from those experiences that will take you forward in your career or life. One of my "guides" is actually younger than me by around 7-8 yrs and I will be 33 soon. So this "kid" is around 24-25, has been working in the industry for just around 2 yrs but god what an amazing talent he has for detecting problems..problems that are known or understood only by people who have 'seen it all'. Some people are just wise beyond their years I guess.

Nirvanam
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#44 Post by Nirvanam » May 16th, 2010, 1:21 am

Logikos wrote:
Nick wrote:It's always mildly disconcerting that when asked a question, Xians suddenly depart from English as she is spoke.

"Jesus is Lord"? :shrug: Does that actually mean anything?
My apologies, Nick, I slipped into using Christianese. At the very least, the claim that Jesus is Lord is the claim that Jesus is YHWH (the God of Judeo-Christianity) incarnate and thus has authority over all. It also carries with it the reverse connotation that nothing or noone else has such authority (and in the context that "Jesus is Lord" was first proclaimed, it carries with it the very clear message that Caesar isn't Lord).
Something ain't right here...Yahweh and Jesus are the same? I thought Jesus was supposed to be son of god.
Logikos wrote:
Nick wrote:"Messiah" is a little more self evident, at least in meaning. But what evidence do you have? Perhaps more importantly, (because I doubt you are about to produce any reasonable evidence) why is it even reasonabl[e] to think that such a thing is worth looking for? The whole proposition is ridiculous, surely?

As for the resurrection, why is the resurrection of Jesus (which, if you look at your bible was, in fact quite a common occurrence at the time) so much more likely than the reappearance of Elvis, Lord Lucan or Shergar?
All of these questions are related. The reason I believe that Jesus is Lord and Messiah is the Resurrection - Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of this event. And the reason I take the claim that the Resurrection actually happened seriously is because of the historical witness to that event.
Nick wrote:While we are at it, what about the Assumption. Just where did Jesus go? Where is he now? My head hurts.
I presume that you mean the Ascension. The Ascension is the transition between Jesus having a physical existence within time and space and having a non-physical existence "outside" of time and space. And that makes my head hurt too.
Nick's point about resurrections being common those days was not known to me...so if they were common then how would it make jesus different from the rest of the resurrected people? Also, since the belief is based on historicity of the event, who are the eye witnesses of this event?

FWIW, I am not criticizing religion or being negative about it...I believe in god too and I know that I do not have any physical evidence for it so I leave it at that. At the end of the day all of us believe existence to be what we believe it to be...none of us is more right or wrong. None of us can prove that we are truly independent living things just as none of us can prove that there is someone or something that decides what, why, how, when we do things.

Coming back to wisdom...do you believe that wisdom and knowledge are different...wisdom is what is beyond knowledge? If so, then how can a book or writing contain wisdom...it would just be knowledge right? Wisdom would require some action or comprehension or mental processing from your part of what is written in the book, no? At best a book can tell you "what is"...what you do with that is different. And here's another question...does the bible say all men and women are equal? If yes, then why are only christians going to heaven? Another perspective...does the bible tell you how to live a "proper" life? If yes, then why are so many people who live life as prescribed by the bible not successful?...by successful I don't mean just material success, consider happiness, comfort, good relationships with people, etc.

Nick
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 10:10 am

Re: Measuring wisdon

#45 Post by Nick » May 16th, 2010, 8:26 am

Logikos wrote:
Nick wrote:While we are at it, what about the Assumption. Just where did Jesus go? Where is he now?
I presume that you mean the Ascension.
Doh! Of course I do! What was I thinking?

Logikos
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#46 Post by Logikos » May 16th, 2010, 8:38 am

Nirvanam wrote:Something ain't right here...Yahweh and Jesus are the same? I thought Jesus was supposed to be son of god.
No, I didn't say YHWH and Jesus are the same, I said Jesus is YHWH. Jesus is also the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity.

Nick
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#47 Post by Nick » May 16th, 2010, 9:26 am

Logikos wrote: The reason I believe that Jesus is Lord and Messiah is the Resurrection - Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of this event. And the reason I take the claim that the Resurrection actually happened seriously is because of the historical witness to that event.
You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers!
Matthew Ch27 v 52-53

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
So here we have lots of resurrections, all witnessed. Presumably resurrection is not the distinguishing feature of being Lord after all....

The record is also suspect as there are several accounts in the Bible. All of them different. Furthermore, why do you think that such an amazing event was not worth recording by any Roman, Greek or Hebrew scholars at the time? The earliest record we have is at least 50 years after the event. 50 years of chinese whispers. And why is this particular thing a fact and not a myth, like so much else in the Bible, by your own admission?

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Alan H
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#48 Post by Alan H » May 16th, 2010, 10:18 am

Logikos wrote:No, I didn't say YHWH and Jesus are the same, I said Jesus is YHWH. Jesus is also the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity.
I hope you can see what problems that causes us. If you use YHWH as a description of some attribute of Jesus (like saying 'Jesus is tall'), then saying 'Jesus is YHWH' and at the same time saying 'Jesus and YHWH are not the same', then OK (Jesus and tall are not the same thing). However, if you are using YHWH as a noun, then you seem to be saying both 'Jesus is YHWH' and 'Jesus is not YHWH'.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Paolo
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#49 Post by Paolo » May 16th, 2010, 11:13 am

Logikos wrote: The reason I believe that Jesus is Lord and Messiah is the Resurrection - Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of this event. And the reason I take the claim that the Resurrection actually happened seriously is because of the historical witness to that event.
Hmm, I wonder if you are not putting the cart before the horse here. You say that the reason you believe is the Resurrection, because you seriously accept the claims of historical witnesses, but I wonder if you would be inclined to believe the historical witnesses if you did not already believe?

I have great reservation about accepting historical accounts of events because we know that eyewitness accounts of other historical events are frequently flawed. Particularly if they are not collected and written down immediately after the event and particularly when the people involved are superstitious and emotionally vulnerable (as I am sure any recent witnesses of a crucifixion would be). Accepting the veracity of the Resurrection accounts relies on the belief that the accounts are accurate - so I argue that your belief is actually based on your belief, which is made acceptable by the cultural framework of a Christian society in which we are not encouraged to doubt the veracity of the contents of the Bible.

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jaywhat
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Re: Measuring wisdom

#50 Post by jaywhat » May 16th, 2010, 12:25 pm

Ken H wrote:
Maria said:
I've had an exhausting week and it's all I can do at the moment to correct the typo in the thread title in the hope that people will now stop talking about cricket. It's not as if the threat title had said Wisden.
Threat title? You must be exhausted! :wink:
I am simply trying to get the m back into wisdom to show how wise I am. That is how you measure it.

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jaywhat
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Re: Measuring wisdom

#51 Post by jaywhat » May 16th, 2010, 12:28 pm

There is no actual historical proof that someone called Jesus Christ lived - let alone died - let alone came back to life again.

Nirvanam
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#52 Post by Nirvanam » May 17th, 2010, 8:02 am

Nick wrote:
Logikos wrote: The reason I believe that Jesus is Lord and Messiah is the Resurrection - Christianity stands or falls on the historicity of this event. And the reason I take the claim that the Resurrection actually happened seriously is because of the historical witness to that event.
You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers!
Matthew Ch27 v 52-53

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
So here we have lots of resurrections, all witnessed. Presumably resurrection is not the distinguishing feature of being Lord after all....

The record is also suspect as there are several accounts in the Bible. All of them different. Furthermore, why do you think that such an amazing event was not worth recording by any Roman, Greek or Hebrew scholars at the time? The earliest record we have is at least 50 years after the event. 50 years of chinese whispers. And why is this particular thing a fact and not a myth, like so much else in the Bible, by your own admission?
Not that I am arguing for Jesus' existence but I would not use that premise as a decent argument against Jesus' existence. Come to think of it, it is extremely narrow...basically by using that argument we are saying that if a person from Roman, Greek, or Hebrew culture who was established in society as a well known historian does not record something then it means Jesus did not exist.

The next part is not relating to you, Nick but a general rant...lol!
This is exactly the kind of logical fallacy that the european missionary bastards of the 18th century inflicted on india and its people...and of course the rest of the world...if a local record says something then it is not true because we (as in european learned men and "scientists" of those times) believe the world to be 6000 yrs old so how can a land and people exist before that. The "New World"????? How bloody disrespectful, and people continue to use that term.

I think it is this european trait that forced science to cut off a whole human mental faculty in modern science...it is because of such narrow minded, divisional methods of the intolerant european classes of the time that modern science has virtually closed itself to learn anything that is not physical.

Nirvanam
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Re: Measuring wisdon

#53 Post by Nirvanam » May 17th, 2010, 8:05 am

Logikos wrote:
Nirvanam wrote:Something ain't right here...Yahweh and Jesus are the same? I thought Jesus was supposed to be son of god.
No, I didn't say YHWH and Jesus are the same, I said Jesus is YHWH. Jesus is also the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity.
Alright, I will not argue on the physical characteristics of 3 being one...coz really for a person who believes all is One I can't complain there.

But what about this heaven and hell thing? And the successful lives of practitioners of the bible? Surely that is some claim, innit?

thundril
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Re: Measuring wisdom

#54 Post by thundril » May 18th, 2010, 4:28 pm

In my early thirties I eperienced my first really bad toothache, so I had all of my teeth taken out. I have had no problems since. So my first experience of really bad toothache turned out to be my only experience of it. Was this a wise decision?
Can I grow wisdom teeth now?

Nirvanam
Posts: 1023
Joined: April 15th, 2009, 11:29 pm

Re: Measuring wisdom

#55 Post by Nirvanam » May 19th, 2010, 3:20 pm

thundril wrote:In my early thirties I eperienced my first really bad toothache, so I had all of my teeth taken out. I have had no problems since. So my first experience of really bad toothache turned out to be my only experience of it. Was this a wise decision?
Can I grow wisdom teeth now?
I don't know if you can grow wisdom teeth, but I guess you didn't learn well from the experience. It is what you learn from the experience that makes you wise, not just having the experience. In fact if you can learn from others' experience and avoid going through negative experiences yourself that would be wise too.

So, what did you learn from the experience, thundrill? :smile:

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