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Thank You!Felicia wrote: Nirvanam!
Bion (v. eminent psychoanalyst and psychiatrist): 'The answer is the death of the question.'
relief at not getting a skelpSo what happens there actually?
I am not sure if it is only about 'getting attention'. I vividly remember a pretty high viral fever, 103.5, I had when I was a kid...it was a bronchial attack of some sort. When my mom would stroke me I'd feel comforted but when my elder brother or dad tried doing it I'd frown at them. Or it could be that I was probably wanting my mom to touch me...a particular type of attention and when I got it I felt comforted.grammar king wrote:I don't think it's actually much to do with the touching. You're getting attention, you feel special, you feel like your needs are being catered for, that's going to make you feel better. It's one reason why homeopaths are so good at maximising the placebo effect, for example.
I detail the references below, with my comments. Note that the article claims results for Therapeutic touch, healers, and "other individuals". I suggest that the references provided do not establish that there are any such results in the first place.numerous of studies of Therapeutic Touch practitioners, healers and other individuals have demonstrated a wide variety of effects on healing rates of wounds,1,2, pain,3, 4, hemoglobin levels,5, 6, conformational changes of DNA and water structure,7, as well as psychological improvements. 8, 9
No it's not. We certainly don't know everything about the placebo response, but there there is no doubt it exists (unlike, say, the dilution 'law' of homeopathy). There is some good stuff on it by Ben Goldacre.Nirvanam wrote:It is just as airy as the people who claim that their alternative therapies work.
The best explanation I've read is in Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science".Nirvanam wrote:We keep referring to this placebo effect quite often to dismiss things but I haven't really seen any post that confirms exactly what is happening during a placebo effect. I read some wiki material but even there it just states that the reason why someone's condition improved is because of a, or b, or c, or whatever. But they don't present evidence of the actual reason in a specific case or whether it was observed consistently enough that the actual reason is 'b' given a particular scenario. It is just as airy as the people who claim that their alternative therapies work.
Bloody right! It's not just about medical woo, but the whole issue of "evidence" in general, statistics, how "commonsense" isn't always "sensible" etc.Alan C. wrote:It's one of the best books I've ever read and I can highly recommend it.grammar king
I'm going to have to get around to reading Bad Science.
As Richard Dawkins once said, we should not open our minds so far that our brains drop out.Nirvanam wrote:Could it be that the fear of discovering something new that could potentially alter the fundamental constructs of our lives is so ingrained that we stop ourselves from opening our minds to different possibilities almost as an involuntary response?
More brackets needed in there, I feel. :-pAlan H wrote:There is a vast chasm between saying 'directing certain thoughts' (whatever that means) and any resultant physiological effects. That isn't to say that there might not be, but, from where I stand, it is way off at one end of the scale (but perhaps a bit short of saying it was our guardian angel wot did it). There are only so many 'different possibilities' we can be open to out of the infinite number that people invent to explain things. However, I wouldn't characterise such a (tentative) dismissal as a 'fear of discovering something new'.
We don't know yet. The huge danger with this all is Blame The Victim; you see, if you say that as a general rule the placebo effect is "directing certain thoughts", then implicitly you blame those who don't get better by implicitly claiming they did not "direct their thoughts well enough", or something. There is a hell of a lot about the placebo effect we really do not understand as yet; what we can be certain of is that if it was all and only a matter of directing thoughts, then a hell of a lot of people would be alive today who aren't.Nirvanam wrote: ... For example, is it possible that in a particular case the patient cured himself through suggestion or by directing certain thoughts?
I don't disagree with the impact on society part of it. And I am not even saying that we should not care about it at all. You see if scientists can have the gall and motivation to do research on whether there are genes in a particular race that influences crime which obviously is harmful to society there is no reason why scientists cannot research suggestion / thought.Gurdur wrote:We don't know yet. The huge danger with this all is Blame The Victim; you see, if you say that as a general rule the placebo effect is "directing certain thoughts", then implicitly you blame those who don't get better by implicitly claiming they did not "direct their thoughts well enough", or something. There is a hell of a lot about the placebo effect we really do not understand as yet; what we can be certain of is that if it was all and only a matter of directing thoughts, then a hell of a lot of people would be alive today who aren't.Nirvanam wrote: ... For example, is it possible that in a particular case the patient cured himself through suggestion or by directing certain thoughts?
We really don't understand many diseases all that well at all. And with many diseases, we know a particular genuine medical medication will work (which is how modern medicine really started off, finding out what actually worked and when it worked), but we don't exactly know why. We discover more all the time, but we're still discovering.
It can be safely said that having a genuinely postive attitude and real social support, as well as some good practical knowledge, will usually help you a hell of a lot in illness in combination with the right medication where it exists, though all the positive thoughts and helpful friendly social enviroment in the world can often be utterly useless when it comes to a handful of galloping Vibrio cholerae.
My first reaction was " LOL! he is obviously pulling my leg and did it well enough to make me laugh at myself".Gurdur wrote:,,,, nvm.