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Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.

If you are not a vegan, please state why you are not a vegan. Thank you.

1. I love the taste of meat, dairy, honey, etc.
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No votes
2. I love to use leather, silk, wool, etc.
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No votes
3. I am too lazy.
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No votes
4. I don't care about the suffering and death of the sentient organisms whose products e.g. meat, milk, honey, silk, wool, leather, etc. I consume.
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No votes
5. I don't care about the environment as veganism is better for the environment.
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No votes
6. I don't care about my long-term health as veganism is better for my long-term health.
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No votes
7. I don't want to save money on food as vegan food is cheaper.
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No votes
8. I am ignorant and can't be bothered to do the research.
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No votes
9. I am selfish.
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No votes
10. I have poor self-control and give in to temptations.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0

Message
Author
Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#1 Postby Compassionist » May 11th, 2019, 9:25 pm

I was raised to be an omnivore. I first became a vegan on 1 August 2006 but I was unable to sustain it due to my ignorance. However, I became a vegan again in 2010 and again failed. Then I tried again from 4 January 2018. Apart from rare exceptions when I gave in to eating milk chocolate or dairy ice-cream or egg products, I have been managing to be a vegan. Are you a vegan? If not, why not? I really want to understand your position. Thank you.

User avatar
Alan H
Posts: 24017
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#2 Postby Alan H » May 12th, 2019, 12:16 am

None of those options applied to me, I felt. I've been a vegetarian for over half my 60+ years. There was a time when I would probably have liked to be a vegan but it always seemed like a lot of hard work and with the possibility of health issues if I wasn't careful, so I felt that being vegetarian was good enough. I think that's all we can hope to be: good enough. We can strive to be that bit better or more perfect, if we like but I don't think we should beat ourselves up because we fail some ideal or other that few can (safely) achieve. I think we should be content to be as good as what we are happy with.

I do eat dairy (I would also eat honey but rarely do), but I have no leather. I can't say I'm that concerned about silk or wool. Perhaps I should be, but if I was to become vegan, I suspect the hassle and stress would not help me or make me feel it was worth it!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#3 Postby Compassionist » May 12th, 2019, 10:11 am

Alan H wrote:None of those options applied to me, I felt. I've been a vegetarian for over half my 60+ years. There was a time when I would probably have liked to be a vegan but it always seemed like a lot of hard work and with the possibility of health issues if I wasn't careful, so I felt that being vegetarian was good enough. I think that's all we can hope to be: good enough. We can strive to be that bit better or more perfect, if we like but I don't think we should beat ourselves up because we fail some ideal or other that few can (safely) achieve. I think we should be content to be as good as what we are happy with.

I do eat dairy (I would also eat honey but rarely do), but I have no leather. I can't say I'm that concerned about silk or wool. Perhaps I should be, but if I was to become vegan, I suspect the hassle and stress would not help me or make me feel it was worth it!

Thank you for your candid reply. I understand your position. Being a vegan certainly requires more effort. For example, Vitamin B12 can't be obtained from plants and vegans obtain it from nutritional yeast and fortified cereals and supplements. We don't live in a perfect world. Thank you for being a vegetarian. If you want to go vegan and have any questions, please feel free to ask me. Here are two videos you may want to see:
Every argument against veganism
Dairy is Scary
Thanks again.

User avatar
Tetenterre
Posts: 3244
Joined: March 13th, 2011, 11:36 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#4 Postby Tetenterre » May 16th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#5 Postby Compassionist » May 16th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Tetenterre wrote:Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.

Thank you for your reply. Our canines are tiny. During our evolution, we were opportunistic omnivores. What we do to sentient animals in factory farms is horrific and entirely avoidable. I don't drink soya milk, I drink oat milk. Not all vegans eat a nutritionally balanced diet, just as not all non-vegans eat a nutritionally balanced diet. Some people eat too much junk food (both vegans and non-vegans) and don't do enough exercise - that's why they are unhealthy. I agree that it is more convenient for us to eat animals products but at what cost to the sentient animals and to the environment? Eating meat has been causally linked to heart disease and cancer. A vegan diet and lifestyle is better for the animals, the environment and humans. Have you watched the videos and read the pages on this thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7523 ? If you haven't, please do. Thank you.

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#6 Postby Compassionist » May 17th, 2019, 5:02 pm



User avatar
animist
Posts: 6519
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#8 Postby animist » May 23rd, 2019, 8:32 am

Tetenterre wrote:Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.
much the same as TT, with probably less science. I never buy clothes, so at least I score well on TT's last point! Sorry, Compo, but as you do not believe in free will you can't really reproach me for my (failure to overcome) my disgusting cravings! Love as ever

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#9 Postby Compassionist » May 23rd, 2019, 11:38 am

animist wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.
much the same as TT, with probably less science. I never buy clothes, so at least I score well on TT's last point! Sorry, Compo, but as you do not believe in free will you can't really reproach me for my (failure to overcome) my disgusting cravings! Love as ever

I am not reproaching you or anyone else about anything. I am a determinist. If I had your genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, I would have been you, reading these words instead of being me, typing these words. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, you would be typing these words, instead of reading them. We are all prisoners of causality. All our choices are inevitable choices. We are not sinners. We are sufferers. From conception, we are doomed to suffer and die. Life consists of suffering and enjoyment. Some suffer more, some enjoy more. Our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences determine our awareness, values and abilities which determine our choices. I am not blaming your for not being a vegan in the past. I am giving you the reasons for being a vegan i.e. it is better for the animals, the environment and humans. I am giving you the information in order to alter your future choices. Whether or not you become a vegan in the future is an inevitable choice which you will make for which you deserve neither praise, nor blame. Everything is proceeding inevitably. Suffering and death awaits all sentient biological organisms - this includes you and I and everyone else. That is why we should live and help live, live and love. That is why we should help all, harm none.

User avatar
animist
Posts: 6519
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 11:36 pm

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#10 Postby animist » May 26th, 2019, 12:59 pm

but Compo (and I sincerely wish I did not have to find fault with the thoughts of someone who is greatly morally superior to me), whyever would you bother to give me reasons to improve my lifestyle if you at the same time believe that I am programmed not to do so?

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#11 Postby Compassionist » May 27th, 2019, 12:38 pm

animist wrote:but Compo (and I sincerely wish I did not have to find fault with the thoughts of someone who is greatly morally superior to me), whyever would you bother to give me reasons to improve my lifestyle if you at the same time believe that I am programmed not to do so?

I don't know what you will do with the information. I don't know you well enough. To predict someone's choices you need to know them extremely well. I gave the information to you and everyone else in the hope that the information will convert you into vegans.

User avatar
Tetenterre
Posts: 3244
Joined: March 13th, 2011, 11:36 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#12 Postby Tetenterre » May 29th, 2019, 10:54 am

Compassionist wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.

Our canines are tiny. During our evolution, we were opportunistic omnivores.
Yet they are still canines; many herbivores do not have them. As for evolution, it is now commonly held that one of the enablers of our brain development was eating animal products, including meat.
What we do to sentient animals in factory farms is horrific and entirely avoidable.
I agree, and avoid buying factory-farmed animal products.
Eating meat has been causally linked to heart disease and cancer.
Yes, there is a relative increase in risk (which I have often seen cited by "militant vegans" as though it is an absolute increase). For example, if I remember the stats correctly, eating a "full English" every day instead of a vegetarian increases the risk of bowel cancer by 20%. From 5 per thousand to 6 per thousand.
A vegan diet and lifestyle is better for the animals, the environment and humans.
I don't dispute that it is better for some animals. Where the environment is concerned, I think that we (in general) certainly need to reduce meat consumption, but I am not convinced that we need to eliminate the use of animal products altogether. I have seen no convincing evidence that a vegan lifestyle is better than, say, an occasional-animal-product-diet, for humans.
Have you watched the videos and read the pages on this thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7523 ? If you haven't, please do
. I haven't; I did, however, watch one you (I think) posted earlier (TED talk, IIRC?). I found it long-winded, unconvincing, rich on cherry-picked data and passing off opinions/value-judgements as fact.

For the record, I do not dispute anybody's right to choose a vegan lifestyle, but I do dispute the right of vegans to attempt to dictate to others how they should live their lives (I know this is not what you're doing!), especially when it is done with some of the most egregious bullshit I have seen on t'internet (eg vegans won't get cancer) - reminds me of the strident macrobiotic advocates of the '60s and '70s.

Be well.
Steve

Quantum Theory: The branch of science with which people who know absolutely sod all about quantum theory can explain anything.

Compassionist
Posts: 3386
Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: Are you a vegan? If not, why not?

#13 Postby Compassionist » June 26th, 2019, 7:48 pm

Tetenterre wrote:
Compassionist wrote:
Tetenterre wrote:Well, those are pretty loaded options, aren't they, Compassionist? How about adding (in no particular order):
* I have the alimentary canal and dentition of an omnivore.
* I find that a balanced high-protein, low carb diet is easier to achieve if I eat animal products.
* I care about environment-damaging soya-bean (and other) monocultures (and Yes, I am aware that most of it goes into animal feed).
* I deplore the smug evangelism that so many vegans employ, especially the anti-scientific bullshit about health benefits (I have known far too many unhealthy vegans to be taken in by that BS).
* I try to avoid clothing made from non-biodegradable petrochemicals.

As you'll have gathered, I'm not vegan -- although I regularly (usually?) eat vegan or vegetarian meals.

Our canines are tiny. During our evolution, we were opportunistic omnivores.
Yet they are still canines; many herbivores do not have them. As for evolution, it is now commonly held that one of the enablers of our brain development was eating animal products, including meat.
What we do to sentient animals in factory farms is horrific and entirely avoidable.
I agree, and avoid buying factory-farmed animal products.
Eating meat has been causally linked to heart disease and cancer.
Yes, there is a relative increase in risk (which I have often seen cited by "militant vegans" as though it is an absolute increase). For example, if I remember the stats correctly, eating a "full English" every day instead of a vegetarian increases the risk of bowel cancer by 20%. From 5 per thousand to 6 per thousand.
A vegan diet and lifestyle is better for the animals, the environment and humans.
I don't dispute that it is better for some animals. Where the environment is concerned, I think that we (in general) certainly need to reduce meat consumption, but I am not convinced that we need to eliminate the use of animal products altogether. I have seen no convincing evidence that a vegan lifestyle is better than, say, an occasional-animal-product-diet, for humans.
Have you watched the videos and read the pages on this thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7523 ? If you haven't, please do
. I haven't; I did, however, watch one you (I think) posted earlier (TED talk, IIRC?). I found it long-winded, unconvincing, rich on cherry-picked data and passing off opinions/value-judgements as fact.

For the record, I do not dispute anybody's right to choose a vegan lifestyle, but I do dispute the right of vegans to attempt to dictate to others how they should live their lives (I know this is not what you're doing!), especially when it is done with some of the most egregious bullshit I have seen on t'internet (eg vegans won't get cancer) - reminds me of the strident macrobiotic advocates of the '60s and '70s.

Be well.

I agree with you.


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